How should the England Angling Team be selected

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This topic contains 48 replies, has 32 voices, and was last updated by  TF_Dodge 6 years, 8 months ago.

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  • #44824

    tweet
    Member

    Guys whats your thoughts on how the England team should be selected, should it stay as it is or should there be some sort of trials system or even from a series of matches with the top six fishing. If the angling trust made this the way of selection do you think that more people may join as well, or would this potentially put some noses out of joint .
    What do we think ?

  • #132905

    what aint broke………….ect.

  • #132909

    TF_Cutnut
    Member

    Interesting and provocative all in one post. This also raises the question who elected/employed the management team?

    The formula as it is, is winning so why change it?

    Would a fully fledged National trial system be workable, it’s hard enough to get people to buy a licence let alone a membership of the AT.

    It is a very good example of nepotism at work.

  • #132912

    the angling trust should continue in charge of all national selection of managers and managers should be allowed to run trials and pick there team, after all where would funding come from if it wern’t for the contributions and sponsership deals obtained by the angling trust and it’s members.

  • #132913

    tweet
    Member

    If I was a international standard angler I would like to think that I had a chance to fish at that level by jumping through a series of hoops or achieving certain criteria that at least put me in with a chance , I am not sure at this moment there is such a criteria that is in the public domain or whether current form is taken into consideration, however I may be wrong and this could be why we now have veteran teams and a feeder fishing team .

    Should there be a wildcard system that allows the manager to pick say 3 anglers and the rest are made up from a 1 off match the national winner the fisho winner ?

    Just a thought

  • #132914

    tweet
    Member

    @Fred Davis wrote:

    the angling trust should continue in charge of all national selection of managers and managers should be allowed to run trials and pick there team, after all where would funding come from if it wern’t for the contributions and sponsership deals obtained by the angling trust and it’s members.

    Simples this one IF the Angling Trust is recognised as the unified body for angling then sport england should fund the team .

  • #132925

    TF_Runcton
    Member

    I don’t think we would always want the national or Fisho winner in the international team.

  • #132929

    TF_Perchie
    Member

    As a Scotsman I need to be careful what I say in reference to English teams…..however given the results do you need to change? Some of the continentals have trials etc but don’t have anywhere near the success. If results were differnet maybe but I can’t see why at present.

  • #132931

    TF_sumo
    Member

    @runcton wrote:

    I don’t think we would always want the national or Fisho winner in the international team.

    They are prestigious Angling Trust events so why shouldn’t the winners be given the chance to fish on the world stage ( assuming they are English ) orwhat about this , if the Angling Trust ran a series of matches with a league table ala the UK champs and the top six represented england would that not reflect the best in the country at that time and therefore entitle them to fish for the national team . The managers then would be responsible for tactics etc

  • #132932

    TF_eels
    Member

    I think changing our system would only weaken our squad. The anglers seem to be given time being in and around the set up before their first match. I’m not sure an international ‘novice’ would be able to handle the pressure.

  • #132934

    Why change it? Why break up a winning squad?
    If anyone was to be replaced who would it be?

    I can’t think of anyone???

  • #132937

    @johnny Mac wrote:

    Why change it? Why break up a winning squad?
    If anyone was to be replaced who would it be?

    I can’t think of anyone???

    What he said. Based on their fantastic achievement is there any reason to change who is involved and the process for selecting the team?

    I would argue not and know a trillion times less than messrs Clegg/Addy/Downes.

  • #132939

    tweet
    Member

    @eels wrote:

    I think changing our system would only weaken our squad. The anglers seem to be given time being in and around the set up before their first match. I’m not sure an international ‘novice’ would be able to handle the pressure.

    What is our system then ? what is the criteria how do the current anglers maintain there place , agreed if it is on past performance and results then I can understand but what would happen if we say ended up tenth ? would that constitute a change . If so how could other anglers have a chance to represent their country ?

  • #132941

    TF_scarf
    Member

    What is the point of fishing internationals? If it’s to win matches then that’s what the current system is delivering, and very successfully.
    If it’s to give everybody a chance to fish for their country based on their last year’s performance then that’s fine also, but it wont result in much success, and ultimately will devalue the competition.

  • #132942

    tweet
    Member

    @scarf wrote:

    What is the point of fishing internationals? If it’s to win matches then that’s what the current system is delivering, and very successfully.
    If it’s to give everybody a chance to fish for their country based on their last year’s performance then that’s fine also, but it wont result in much success, and ultimately will devalue the competition.

    But how will we ever know if someone else can do better if we don’t give them a chance ?, cant see much changing for a long long time then especially as anglers don’t seem to get worse with age.

  • #132944

    TF_scarf
    Member

    Change the team when it stops winning or starts to creak. I’m sure the current management team don’t want to manage a losing team and are aware of the talent available should they need to strengthen.

  • #132947

    tweet
    Member

    @scarf wrote:

    Change the team when it stops winning or starts to creak. I’m sure the current management team don’t want to manage a losing team and are aware of the talent available should they need to strengthen.

    To me that doesn’t seem logical because it doesn’t always mean that you field your strongest team ? it just means you only change it when it fails and fishing being fishing means that the draw and other factors will generally effect the result.

  • #132948

    TF_eels
    Member

    I think the current system is the managment team decides who they want in the squad and then the team is decided on who does best in the practices. I believe we will not see whole sale changes in the team but gradual turn over as some of the senior anglers retire or do not make the squad(i.e Kevin Ashurst and Bob Nudd).
    This is why i think the team will stay strong as it has a massive amount of experience and the other squad anglers are ready to step in when the opportunity arrises.

  • #132949

    tweet
    Member

    eels good shout , should the squad be made bigger then to allow more opportnities as I am sure there are some international standard anglers out there that would love to put themselves in the shop window , but are asking the question how they do it.

  • #132951

    TF_eels
    Member

    It must be frustrating if you believe you are good enough to represent your country but are not given the chance. But the team is SO strong you would have to have an amazing run of results over a couple of years to break into it.
    Also these results would need to be in the right type of matches, not just big money events on commercials.
    I think they tend to use home internationals to blood anglers who might one day be able to step up to the full world squad.England have been the most consistant team on the world stage for about 20 years now so i think the managment have got it spot on.

  • #132955

    TF_Cutnut
    Member

    How many could dedicate enough time and effort and not have relationships suffer either at work or at home? I reckon you’ve either got to be single, self-employed or have a partner or boss so onboard that you don’t have the nag factor bringing you down.

    By all accounts there’s no money in it for those fishing or none to speak of or spoken of, but there must surely be something in it for those organising it besides philanthropy.

  • #132956

    TF_Anthonywaters
    Participant

    They seem to come up trumps with the squads they pick I wouldn’t change the selection process, fishing for england doesn’t seem that appealing to be honest.

  • #132964

    TF_fish2
    Member

    Eels is correct.~clap

    England have the most successful international team in the World.

    But all the time new anglers are being assessed and blooded via the European Championships for future World Championship events.

    New blood is introduced when necessary so there is a slow but successful turnover of anglers over time.

    Remember International events are held on natural venues often using bloodworm so commercial anglers would not have the necessary skills.

    In the next few years I am sure you will see Lee Kerry, Jon Arthur and Matt Godfrey all get their chance at European matches with the likelihood that they will all make the World scene.

  • #133045

    lewis
    Member

    Think the current way, of two managers who know their stuff selecting the team, is the way forward.

    The current team is the best in the world and has been for some time.

    By actually selecting the team rather than relying on results from qualifers, the management know they have a team that will get along and share information…

    All the current team are top individual anglers but when they gel on international duty they are ultimately professional and virtually unbeatable.

    I agree RE Lee Kerry, Jon, Matt and a few others. All will force their way in and fully deserve their chance when it happens. But why should anyone be given the chance purely for the sake of creating an opportunity?

  • #133050

    I think it’s important to understand that they are a ‘team’ not just a collection of the 6 best anglers in the country, which they may or may not be.

    They’ve been together a long time, both anglers and management, mess with that at your peril.

    Even if you found a better individual angler (or anglers) doesn’t mean they’d be a stronger team than we have now – probably the opposite.

  • #133055

    There is more to it than just picking a team the Management need to understand the venues the methods the moods then base there squad around a group of guys who could best cope with the given situation, then of course the final team is selected from that.

    To pick anglers from one off matches is ridiculous
    for one, those one off matches maybe miles off the methods and style of fishing required for the World Champs, there would be no advantage, you would run the risk of putting anglers in who are completely out of their comfort zone and therefor a risk.

    Mark and the team do a fantastic job just like Dick before they have rarely let the country down, sure you fav star may not be in the team but in a lot of cases they have more than likely been trialled at one point or another and you can bet your last quid they are being watched.

    Its a very hard call picking half a dozen blokes from the thousands that compete in matches week in week out.

    There is no point trying to fix something that isn’t broken, if World Champs venues started to resemble our current commercial scene then maybe a few new faces could slip into the fold.

  • #133059

    TF_ally
    Participant

    I am not bothered about the English team but want to say if only Scotland could find a few more Jamie Massons, not bad for a comercial angler.

  • #133062

    I must admit that the current england squad are bringing home the bacon and cannot understand anglers knocking the selection process other anglers are given a chance at the trials and some european comps where I beleive larger squads are used, at the end of the day the two Marks make the final decision and rest assured if they started to fail to acheive it would be their heads on the block,as many have said why fix which ain’t broke?

    As for tweets response to the fact that england don’t get funding from sport england, it may be one of the reasons why the old NFA no longer exists, you can’t blame the angling trust and all it’s unified componants for not trying, I think the very amalgamation of the various factions was to create a unified body in to give angling a voice, the main problem is that a lot of anglers don’t join as they see no personal benefit in doing so, communication to anglers is an area the angling trust really needs to get right in order to improve it’s membership levels, it needs to spell ot extremely clearly the benefit of joining such an organisation, then maybe sport england will provide more funding to our great sport. The selection process for international duty, trials, etc should be clearly spelt out by the angling trust to the members and general angling community, the time to be above board, open and beyond critism will only improve membership.

  • #133064

    TF_Slider
    Member

    I think the only answer is to create another high profile internation “blooding” event, the likes of Darren Cox, Simon Willsmore etc have been on the fringes for years and they are TOP class anglers but who would you drop to accommodate them into the main team ? I think there is an argument for Stu Conroy but he is a TEAM angler and can be relied upon, my feeling is that Darren would be better but that just me and I am not the England Manager.

    If you had another event ( not the nations or homes, becaue some of the full squad always fish these ) just to blood new anglers such as Lee Kerry, Jon Arthur, Ben Leach etc then they would have a platform from which they could make the jump, the risk we run is to leave anglers like Darren, Simon etc outside the team for too long.

  • #133086

    kee lerry
    Member

    We are talking about the best team in the world.

    The current system is done to create continuity year on year. This in turn leads to every individual becoming part of a unit and I have witnessed how well this works.

    The current system is the best way to pick the team in my opinion. The management are on the ball with all the so called ‘fringe’ anglers, they know their strengths and weaknesses, as well as those in the team.

    As time goes on there will be a chance for other anglers to show their talents, but if you simply gave people one or two years you would not get the best out of them as they would be petrified about being dropped.

    If I am ever good enough or lucky enough to get a chance to represent the country I would be comfortable in the fact that I am becoming part of an elite unit and would want to work with them to achieve success.

    Every other country has a trial process and we beat them year on year, so our system must be the best.

    Just my opinion anyway!

  • #133091

    TF_clfletch
    Member

    I used to think that the selection process was too much of a closed shop, but I’ve changed my mind. Even in sports where performance is very measurable such as rowing, there is an element of judgement in team selection.

    In fishing there are so many variables that comparative performance is impossible to measure definitively. The judgement of the management is therefore critical, and our managers have a good record on this.

    “if it aint broke don’t fix it” may sound glib, but in this case I think it’s a fair conclusion to come to. There MAY be a better England line up out there, but if I was Mark Downes or Mark Addy I’d be damned if I’d chance my arm selecting them while the current one they’ve selected is winning.

  • #133097

    @Fred Davis wrote:

    I must admit that the current england squad are bringing home the bacon and cannot understand anglers knocking the selection process other anglers are given a chance at the trials and some european comps where I beleive larger squads are used, at the end of the day the two Marks make the final decision and rest assured if they started to fail to acheive it would be their heads on the block,as many have said why fix which ain’t broke?

    As for tweets response to the fact that england don’t get funding from sport england, it may be one of the reasons why the old NFA no longer exists, you can’t blame the angling trust and all it’s unified componants for not trying, I think the very amalgamation of the various factions was to create a unified body in to give angling a voice, the main problem is that a lot of anglers don’t join as they see no personal benefit in doing so, communication to anglers is an area the angling trust really needs to get right in order to improve it’s membership levels, it needs to spell ot extremely clearly the benefit of joining such an organisation, then maybe sport england will provide more funding to our great sport. The selection process for international duty, trials, etc should be clearly spelt out by the angling trust to the members and general angling community, the time to be above board, open and beyond critism will only improve membership.

    Very true Fred. Rugby League is one of my sports and to access funding they had to have an unified body.

  • #133099

    England certainly got something right re selection from Dick Clegg onwards.

    World Championship match fishing seems very different to what we are used to in terms of duration and fishing style.

    I think the anglers have to selfless in terms of the time/dedication they give/make and in terms of working for the TEAM. I think if you are good enough then you will get an opportunity.

    Dennis White, Tom Pickering, Kevin Ashurst, Bob Nudd have all come and gone so on that basis if you are no longer at the top, the selection process is brutal. The anglers that have come along or are fighting for spots are hardly second rate, the opposite in fact.

    In the Mark’s we trust.

  • #133103

    I think England could put 2 or 3 teams in World champs and all have a chance of winning(maybe more).
    Look at how we do in world club champs and you’ll see that it would be wrong to pick a national winner and i dont see how winning at Cudmore would stand you in good stead for a 20 foot fast flowing river.
    I think the 2 Mark’s do a great job and the future looks very bright with 4 of the current team still relatively young(Will,Des,Conny and Sean) and with anglers like Lee Kerry,Matt Godfrey,Joe Carrass and Cameron Hughes to name a few coming through everything looks rosy.

  • #133109

    England always used to use results in THE National (when there was only one) to choose its international team. I know a few anglers and knew others that were selected in that way. From memory I believe that we had one solitary individual Gold medal in that time – Brian Harris??? – I can picture his photo but not recall for sure his name which in itself says something. I am not sure that we had any team medals at all.

    Now we all know who England’s world champions have beenand can name them. Look at the number of team medals we win now. Enough said methinks.

    Whilst we are on the subject though, does anyone know if the managers use scouts like they would in football or are we just talking too much money? Or do you have to fish that they do for a good team to get recognised.

    By the way well said Fred. It wasn’t and isn’t anglers that wanted a unified body for the sport but Sport England. No funding whatsoever will come our way via the Governments chosen path of Sport England unless and until the Angling Trust is accepted by anglers. The coaching side is going well and the numbers of coaches and those being coached rises which is what Sport England want to see.

  • #133118

    I think the 2 Mark’s do consult with trusted scouts.

    As you say the old system pre Dick Clegg was hopeless.

  • #133135

    Waveney One
    “Robin” Harris
    Definitely Billy Lane as well
    and I’m pretty sure that ian heaps was selected for his win on the basis of a national result on the Trent?

    (Dave Thomas and Kevin Ashurst also won pre Dick Clegg)

    NWCA
    Dick Clegg didn’t bring in selection, his predecessor Stan Smith was selecting the team for sure.
    The results were definitely improving, but Dick added the final 10%.
    Worth noting that historically, England teams were also hampered by a 10m line restriction

    no doubt that current selection method is effective and the very best anglers do get noticed

  • #133193

    wacky
    Member

    if it a’nt broke d’nt try to fix it.

  • #133195

    mess around with one of the only things in this country that isnt broken?
    (according to the mass media)
    the england fishing team has staggering success on the world stage which should make any englishman proud (and not just the ones who fish)
    the ability to go to foreign venues and win is truly mind boggling to me and if the current system in place knows what they are doing then i for one take my hat off to them.
    what is shameful imo is the way their success is never seen in the mass media,
    all they ever seem to focus on are the things we’re truly rubbish at like football.
    now thats how to organise a team isnt it?
    a crap team with players playing in the wrong positions and all managed by an italian tommy cooper looky likey who is on soo much money they can’t afford to sack him?
    now thats how wrong it can be if your not careful

    ~sick

    leave well alone i say!

  • #133202
    NoCarpPlease wrote:
    Waveney One
    “Robin” Harris
    Definitely Billy Lane as well
    and I’m pretty sure that ian heaps was selected for his win on the basis of a national result on the Trent?

    (Dave Thomas and Kevin Ashurst also won pre Dick Clegg)

    NoCarpPlease wrote:
    Robin Harris of course.

    Thanks, Billy Lane, 1963 how could I have forgotten that!

    Ian Heaps was crowned World Champion in 1975 but I thought he was a selection as were Dave Thomas and Big Kev.

  • #133217

    ~clap ~clap top topic
    we have the most successful angling team in the world and have had for a number of years, both marks are doing a brilliant job without doubt and must be frustrating for the younger anglers. but i think theses lads are learning the art of angling far quicker being around the current England team and there time will come.angling is not a short career like football or any physical sports its more mental and tactical so the more time you are learning the better chance in the future they will have
    i’m pretty sure the young generation are fired up and love the chance of beating the current England team and that hunger can only be good for the sport

  • #133236

    Anonymous

    will all the same faces be in the feeder team ?

  • #133254

    @the monk wrote:

    will all the same faces be in the feeder team ?

    Nope, Tom Pickering is in charge of the feeder team and I *think* they fish at similar times in different locations so they can’t be both places at once ?

  • #136988

    Mick209
    Member

    Its like alot of England teams, if they don’t understand each other and communicate well, they end up at a disadvantage. If a country is to promote itself as doing well at a sport, pick the best team, not the best individuals IMO. If your bored of the same faces, you could use a highlighter or give them a moustache, maybe even turn the TV to black n white, makes them look older.

  • #136990

    TF_respect
    Member

    What about Dave Roper??????????????
    He won the world champs abroad but practised his waggler fishing on the river Ribble !!

    So there are anglers out there that can come into the team and perform at world level,fact!

    I think there should be a wild card match to get into the squad for that year,even if the winner doesent make the team they should be involved in practic and pre selection etc.

    No body on here knows who the Ted Carter Southport squad are? but they have qualified for the sensas challenge in France next year!!!

    It just goes to show you dont have to be a big name to do well!

    Only time will tell if any of them can make it onto the England train!!!!!

  • #136998

    Nez
    Member

    Like it or not, in any team sport, the selection should be down to the managers. Thats why they earn their position and respect. It is the managers job to find the tallent and integrate them into the role they are required to fullfill.

    Like them or not, ask yourself this. Have the Marks done what they are tasked to do? Have they brought and maintained success? Should they be knocked for sticking to their guns and continuing to field a team that is always knocking on the door?

    Trials – Lee Kerry seems to be knocking around the England scene a bit nowadays. Is he being groomed for a call up? They must feel he has the correct skills, attitude and ability to step in eventually.

    It looks like you have two options as an angler. Follow your England dream or go down the Individual route. Look at Will Raison, he seems to have put allot of the individual stuff such as fisho etc on the back burner. He in my opinion has nailed his colours on the mast, his priority is team fishing for England.

    Team fishing – Controvertial one. Is the standard dropping with a majority of the best anglers focusing more on the commercial/Individual scene.

    or

    Do the team anglers, who dont fish many individual events on commercials get the column inches they deserve and therefore stay off the radar.

  • #137033

    perhaps the inclusion of Darren Cox & Steve Hemmingway in the feeder team is to give them further england senior experiance with both formerly being limited to Euro appearances.
    Dave Harrell-editorial of M/F comments that due to cost it is likely that in future the senior and this event may be merged. A very astute observation and if likely may decide this and future team selection for senior fringe candidates to gain experiance?

  • #137035

    TF_carpcruncher
    Participant

    @milomadness wrote:

    what aint broke………….ect.

    100% with that , its a winning team! nuff said~clap

  • #137057

    TF_Dodge
    Member

    @respect wrote:

    What about Dave Roper??????????????
    He won the world champs abroad but practised his waggler fishing on the river Ribble !!

    So there are anglers out there that can come into the team and perform at world level,fact!

    I think there should be a wild card match to get into the squad for that year,even if the winner doesent make the team they should be involved in practic and pre selection etc.

    No body on here knows who the Ted Carter Southport squad are? but they have qualified for the sensas challenge in France next year!!!

    It just goes to show you dont have to be a big name to do well!

    Only time will tell if any of them can make it onto the England train!!!!!

    That is what is fantastic about our sport Pete …… other squads have done the same in past years at that international class level , match angling is probably the only sport where this can happen ~clap ~clap

    As has already been said on this thread , Lee Kerry his mucker Joe Carrass , Lewis Breeze , Cameron Hughes and Matt Godfrey are all very close to stepping up to the full England set up when the time is right ~clap

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