Match Fishing/Lee Thornton

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This topic contains 19 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by  TF_Thorntinski 4 years ago.

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  • #56499

    TF_gixer1
    Member

    Read with interest Lee Thorntons’ comments on England team selection on Match Fishings web site, came up with some valid points I think, but how would you go about selecting a national team, it seems the team members are picked from arguably the 3 best teams in the country,(at the moment), much the same as the national soccer team is picked, I could not see a better method because these lads and their respective teams are always at the top of their game, yes it may seem a little unfair/one sided but having a few trial matches etc would not ensure we get anglers with the relevant experience/knowledge, it does seem hard to get into the national squad but I think if you really want this you just have to have the dedication,skill, and knowlege to get into one of the top teams in the country and try to shine, obviously there are more than 3 good teams nationally, but I think at the time of selection the guys selected were in the managements opinion the best lads available, disappointing for hopefuls but I think you just have to stick at it.
    And no before anyone says it I don’t think Lee Thornton is whinging, I think the lads just trying to put over some valid points of view and to inform others what level of dedication/skill is required to represent your country at such a high level. As for the comment “no point taking part” that is probably borne more out of frustration than resignation.

  • #164705

    TF_redarmy
    Member

    you can understand why some talented youngsters couldnt be bothered when as lee says its took steve hemmingray till hes 50 to get in the team

  • #164000

    TF_Prawnking
    Member

    Agree 100% with what Lee says. Whilst you cant argue with the current England team or its management the only way to change and give other anglers a chance is to have a 10 year maximum term for management and team members thus allowing fresh blood every ten years. There are loads of top quality all round anglers who never get a chance and maybe this needs to change. Some will argue that our current team is best in the world but possibly we have two or three teams behind them who could achieve the same status.
    What do you think?

  • #163705

    TF_Lewis101
    Member

    I am good mates with Lee, but really can’t see the problem or the point.

    The team picked is the best in the world. The team picked has the talent, dedication, sponsorship and money to be able to fish the sorts of matches that enable you to get into the England team, and stay there.

    Does your face have to fit? Of course it does, it is a team, and you don’t want one man unsettling the whole team or restricting flow of information between members and management.

    There are, arguably, some anglers who should of been given a shot in the past, and deserve a shot in the future. But I could name 100 footballers I’d put in the England football team. It’s all opinion.

    The only opinion that matters is that of who is picking the team. If they are picking the wrong team, they don’t win much, and the inevitable happens – they get the sack.

    The long and the short of it is, fishing is a sport where age is no barrier. Those in the England team now, will form the basis of it for the next ten years. For aspiring youngsters they just have to wait their turn to represent their country. (whether they are 25, 40, 50 when the time comes who knows).

  • #162795

    Only point I’d add is that there needs to be some level of succession planning – which the European champs and home internationals have been used for in the past

  • #162244

    TF_Lewis101
    Member

    Yeah good point that I missed no carp please.
    Europeans have been used to good effect in the past. Using two of the main team, and blooding three (I think) who look to take the next step. It takes an element of risk away from the worlds.

  • #157796

    TF_ian1980
    Member

    @prawnking wrote:

    Agree 100% with what Lee says. Whilst you cant argue with the current England team or its management the only way to change and give other anglers a chance is to have a 10 year maximum term for management and team members thus allowing fresh blood every ten years. There are loads of top quality all round anglers who never get a chance and maybe this needs to change. Some will argue that our current team is best in the world but possibly we have two or three teams behind them who could achieve the same status.
    What do you think?

    i totally disagree with you if a team including the management is a winning combination y change it? its when u keep chopping n changing u end up winning nothing, tuff luck if they come from 3 teams I remember an England team consisting of 4 out of 1 team and only steve gardener broke into it.Take a look at football most successful team had a manager for over 20yrs and he didn’t always have the best players at the time

  • #157659

    Gents, I posted this on Matchfishing scene, hope this helps explain my point of view.

    P.s Lewis 101 stop stalking the fishing websites, it’s like a convicted rapist re-visiting the victim.

    Its interesting that people class an age where you would be already looking to retire in a short while from professional sports as young (sorry mr Kerry!)
    My blog wasn’t aimed at knocking the hard work and success of the current England team anglers/ management, more to highlight that there is a correlation between the way the England team is selected and interest in natural venue matches/team fishing.

    Our sport is non-professional and as such to keep interest, the anglers at the grass roots of the sport require the perception of obtainable success. With the current system there is such small chance of reaching the top that anglers (myself included) choose a different path.
    Winning Fishomania is very difficult to even the best anglers, however it is obtainable by novice anglers given two lucky matches hence the fact that the commercial domestic scene is far more popular than team fishing on naturals, there is a carrot for the masses.

    I still maintain that there is limited interest in the success of the England team, obviously everybody has there own views but the fact that it is not reported in national news/newspapers, the bbc doesn’t care that we have multiple world champions and doesn’t mention it during the sports personality of the year programme and even Mark Downes has commented on it in print in Matchfishing magazine suggests my hunch is correct.

    There has been a bit of talk lately about team fishing as a whole and the reasons behind the decline, some people blame the NFA for not being able to run competitions which is wrong as time and time again they successfully run matches, other people blame commercial fisheries.

    The truth is commercials offered a more appealing option as therefore anglers changed their habits en masse.

    Team fishing in my opinion could be re-vitalised over night by the re-creation of obtainable success but this would come at a cost to international glory.

    if you ask me, if you could trade a few gold medals for the atmosphere that used to be around Matchfishing when I was first exposed to it in the late 90’s, it would be a no brainer.

  • #156720

    TF_Lewis101
    Member

    I remember you having a relatively lengthy break at one point Lee. Are you a rapist?

    You are right – the majority of anglers couldn’t give a flying monkeys whether they fish for England or not. Stick a ‘how the gold medal was won’ front cover against a ‘bag a million lb of carp on one pellet and a slice of bread’ front cover and there is only one winner.

    It is what it is mate. The team is selected on merit, on personality and ability. And they’re doing a pretty good job from what I can see.

    RE “Team fishing in my opinion could be re-vitalised over night by the re-creation of obtainable success but this would come at a cost to international glory.” Get on and do it then. If you think people will follow, go ahead and create your own system. Don’t just whinge about lack of opportunity.

  • #156576

    Lewis101

    No whinging coming from my direction, just a view point on the lack of interest in one branch of our sport. I made my decision to not chase the dream around 8 years ago and still do not regret it.

    Besides, it’s got a few people talking and that’s not a bad thing.

    I think your still missing the point, I’m not denying the success of the team and have no point made reference to trying to improve results, no body has done as good a job as the current set up, the original blog was explaining why their is lack of interest or respect.

    Is 21 still your favourite number?

  • #156534

    TF_Lewis101
    Member

    Thorntinski

    I agree it has got people talking. Fair play.

    There’s long been an apathy in the national angling team – nobody cares. The main reason Fisho and Match This capture some of the non top-flight angling fraternity is due to the financial rewards at stake.
    We’re capitalists at heart in this country :). The debate as to why there is an increase in people that don’t give a damn is deeper than the structure of the sport. It’s a social shift.

    I used to argue until I was red in the face that fishing was a sport and shoot anyone down in flames who disagreed. Now I’m not in the loop any more, I have to say that I was misguided and although hugely fun and competitive, Match fishing has to be classed as a hobby. The prize money is irrelevant. You may as well pay nothing to enter and go home with a bag of oranges as a prize in most matches (festivals, fisho, match this etc are exceptions).

    I know you like analogies Thorntinski , so here goes…
    Classing match fishing as a sport is as silly as asking Phil Taylor and Adrian Lewis to draw out of a hat (the drawbag) as to who gets to keep the lights on when it’s their turn to throw.

  • #156421

    Following that logic Lewis we all might aswell turn up for the draw, and have a raffle for the ‘prizes’.

    The fact of the matter is that in fishing, as in other sports, football, rugby, and tennis etc the outcomes can be decided by the decisions you make. There is an element of luck, as in other sports, but it needn’t be the be all and end all. Sport or hobby? Who cares?

    As for the England team, same applies. Its largely irrelevant to most of us.

    I’m not saying I don’t want to see them do well, but what difference does it make to my life how they get on?

  • #156340

    Lewis 101 you make a compelling argument for fishing not being a sport, however if it was just as simple as a spin on a roulette wheel I too would of drifted away by now.

    If we are to shift the subject matter to ‘is fishing a sport’ then I also would opine that it is not.

    However the closest thing i can class it too is poker. Our gambling friends are involved in a game that requires a skill input to achieve a successful output on something that is initially luck based. Poker players however are not classed as professional hobbyists though are they?

  • #156339

    personally deffo NOT a capitalist at heart ! 🙂

    but love match-fishing because its a competitive sport – its the winning not so much the dosh – (you’re backing your own abilities on that venue). Indeed, by that extension most FIPS continental teams do not fish for money but prizes – so that surely evidence disproves that assertion Lewis?
    which must be why the current England team are so good – there’s certainly not much financial reward for their dedication and skill when they step down.
    Indeed team fishing means that there’s scant reward and likely overall financial loss -even for a top team winning. Much the same could be said for the majority of individual competitive angling except for a tiny, tiny few and lets face it – they could have earned far more by not dedicating to reach the top and skills ladder for competitive match angling.
    Quite a few -including some England squad members have done exactly that – forsaken a well paid professional career to devote time to reaching the top in match fishing.

    if it was a pastime as described i would’nt bother – and personally never enjoyed ‘pleasure angling’ much either as don’t see a point unless practicing a method or venue.bait for a match – and obviously fair play to those that do though.

  • #156220

    i’d add that as the better anglers usually win, then the random factor is mainly the draw – increasing by number of participants and skill set levels with day of event ‘unknowns’.

    For evaluating ‘known’ variables, then a high degree of technical skills and watercraft awareness is involved with success/output positive endowment qualitative factors such as preparation of procedures for evaluation of variables with constant assumed patterns;
    – ie seasonal and event weather predicted conditions (with causal effect) that affect both degree of method/style and distance application feeding,

    discipline requisite skillsets allied to technique- including speed/smoothness in a number of ways, similar performance improvement and performance assessment, educational taught. shared and practical experiences, and motivational and psychological states to cope with likely pressures on an upward curve.

    Memory or recall of previous similar situations and fish responses including to varied feeding patterns and environmental conditions would also factor – that many keep detailed logs

    Natural ability – or intuition – could also be broken down into a personal ability to read, adapt or change – that might actually reveal that the intuitive thought and decision making process that appears ‘natural’ – might be deconstruction of components is actually that person assimilating and deducting a number of learned predictive/ reactive and particularly anticipatory patterns ‘instinctively’ -rather than a long learning curve for the majority.

    Behavioral analysis for evaluation of tactics and plan in relation to above also has two components; participants and fish – with species subordinated.

    Given this, i’d say match-fishing is a competitive sport and if money or wider consumer/audience demand was there as a spectator participatory sport (unlikely given its nature to key non-anglers for audience/ spectators) to show an outlay profitable return – then the commercial and capital investment might follow – with specialized performance evaluation and scientific evaluation appearing by the requirements like other sports where there are /have been evolved historical commercial opportunities.

  • #169630

    TF_clfletch
    Member

    You’re spot on Lee. Only an idiot would argue with the team’s record, which is brilliant – but that isn’t the point. The long term is the issue and as Mark Downs himself attests, too few are involved in this sort of fishing for our dominance to continue, unless something changes. Rather than changing team fishing to three hour matches and all the rest of the things he suggests, which won’t interest many, he should look to the England set-up itself, and make it more accessible. That way a few more youngsters might want to learn bloodworm and joker over pellet, and naturals over commys, as the team wouldn’t just consist of “old” men. Tommy Pickering was World Champion at 21. Who would get that chance now?

  • #169631

    TF_redarmy
    Member

    the problem is not just for the england team but match fishing in general,it has become a middle aged and old mans game by and large with very few young matchanglers coming through.you will see odd regional variations where you might have a small group of younger anglers doing well but have alook around next time your in the draw que and see what the average age is.i fished the open at blundells on sunday and i would say the youngest angler was mid to late 30,s and the oldest late 60,s.the average age was probably mid to late 40,s

  • #169636

    TF_gis9
    Member

    If you look at match fishing in general there are more people fishing over 55 matches and many of the younger anglers , Jamie Hughes etc who are very talented fish mainly commercials and most probably do not want the expense and have the time to put themselves in contention for a international place .
    I personally like the international matches and it must be a fantastic honour to fish for your country and to achieve what they have . I do think it is horses for courses these days

  • #169639

    TF_Dodge
    Member

    I havent posted on here for a long while but here goes ……

    Personally i think the current England set up and what it has achieved over many years is remarkable for our sport and our country and anyone doubting it needs their head testing asap.

    For those that just dangle pellets for alien synthetic F1s or are happy to chuck a method feeder out everytime they go “fishing” how on earth can they expect to be considered or attain the standard required to take on England class anglers in cips rules competition ?

    Lastly , our sport has become too expensive at top level , it is supposed to be a working mans sport !

  • #169640

    @clfletch wrote:

    You’re spot on Lee. Only an idiot would argue with the team’s record, which is brilliant – but that isn’t the point. The long term is the issue and as Mark Downs himself attests, too few are involved in this sort of fishing for our dominance to continue, unless something changes. Rather than changing team fishing to three hour matches and all the rest of the things he suggests, which won’t interest many, he should look to the England set-up itself, and make it more accessible. That way a few more youngsters might want to learn bloodworm and joker over pellet, and naturals over commys, as the team wouldn’t just consist of “old” men. Tommy Pickering was World Champion at 21. Who would get that chance now?

    Thanks, I think you are one of the very few that understood my point of view and where I was coming from, trying to explain the lack of interest of team fishing/ international fishing.

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