depends on the conditions i.e flat calm conditions in 3-4 ft of water a 4×12 will catch more fish than a 4×16, number 1 the bait will look more natural going down and less shot for the fish to feel.Where are you going with your question???

psb182, you are wrong in my opinion. The basic rule for shotting capacity of pole floats in 0.10 of a gram for every 1 foot of depth. Then you need to add shotting capacity to compensate for any undertow and the effects of the wind to your rig. So, the starting point for 4ft of water is a float with 0.40 of shotting capacity. That means a 4×16 float for fishing in 4ft of water in almost perfect conditions.

squatt, i agree with you to a certain extent. Magazine articles that show fancy shotting patterns with 4x12s floats fished 6ft deep are just rubbish and should be ignored. There is no point to them except maybe attempting to fill a few extra inches on the page of the article.

The dropper shot and where they are placed is the important part in helping to show bites on the drop. Hence the name dropper shot. The shot nearest the hook is the tell tail shot and is most important. Any movement on the tell tail shot shows up as a bite Where the shot are placed on the line determines the way the hook bait falls though the water and effects the way fish react to the hook bait.

As long as the float is shotted fully and the dropper shot are indicating on the float. Then there is very little adverse effects from having extra shot on the line where seeing or getting bites is concerned. Not having enough shot on a rig or down the line reduces the control of the float, rig and hook bait and slows down the speed in getting the hook bait down to the feeding fish.

The size of the dropper shot and where the tell tail shot is placed is often very important. Moving any of the dropper shot one inch can make all the difference to the number of bites an angler can get and the hooking potential of those bites.

Think about slider floats and the massive shotting capacity on those floats with all the shot down the line and often fished with the shot quite close to the hook. That method has been one of the main reasons for England winning individual and team World Championships for many years on continental pole dominated silver fish venues.

There is a bit about this in Ivan Mark’s book where he states that he prefered to use a LOT of lead and yet one thing he constantly emphasises is small hooks, light lines and presenting a bait as naturally as possible, so it can be done. He goes into a bit of detail for his reasoning and it makes sence. I suppose like evrything it all boils down to confidence. When it come to pole fishing then I think there is more room for finesse, but the surly the basic principles are the same?
I suppose its all about feeling comfortable with your presentation, then you can focus on the feeding.

@TrueBlue wrote:

psb182, you are wrong in my opinion. The basic rule for shotting capacity of pole floats in 0.10 of a gram for every 1 foot of depth. Then you need to add shotting capacity to compensate for any undertow and the effects of the wind to your rig. So, the starting point for 4ft of water is a float with 0.40 of shotting capacity. That means a 4×16 float for fishing in 4ft of water in almost perfect conditions.

well we will have to dissagree I think your wrong mate,4×12 in perfect conditions will get you more bites than a 4×16 in 3-4 ft of water

Ill keep fishing my 4×12 rigs in 6 feet of water thanks. If conditions are good and you are targetting decent sized Carp then a light rig will get you more bites. Too many times i have had two rigs set up, one light and one heavy and not been able to catch on the heavy rig. I think the problem arises when the conditions dont allow light rigs to be presented effectively yet anglers continue to plug away with a set up that isnt right.

Trueblue i would very rarely if ever go as heavy as 4×16 in 4 feet of water, more likely it would be 4×12, with 4×14 more suitable for 6 feet plus.

Have sat alongside Andy Mead on numerous occassions over the years,i myself fishing 4×12,4×14 rigs etc…Meady 1-2grm emptying it.Flies in the face of any perfect weight to depth ratio as far as i’m concerned,what he was doing was right on the day for whatever reason!

@Decaff wrote:

Have sat alongside Andy Mead on numerous occassions over the years,i myself fishing 4×12,4×14 rigs etc…Meady 1-2grm emptying it.Flies in the face of any perfect weight to depth ratio as far as i’m concerned,what he was doing was right on the day for whatever reason!

fishing in an aquarium full of hungry fish and all that goes out the window,feeding and getting your bait down fast as well as putting your rig in the right place is the key factors in those cases

Decaff, thats a totally different style of fishing, when bagging with small fish a heavier more positive rig will definitely increase your catch rate. A prime example of this was the GUC, we used to fish 4×12 on the whip for roach around Northampton. We then went up to lady capels nr watford again on the canal which was the same depth yet because it was solid with Gudgeon you needed to fish a gram. Its all about getting it right on the day.

Believe you me,Meady does this type of thing anywhere,some of those venues were anything but Fish filled aquariums.
~think ~think

Sorry Steve i posted that before your reply,you are obviously aware of his style on the canal & probably have seen him fish a lot more than i over the past few years.He will still do this though wherever he is,it just seems to fly in the face of what you think is the correct approach.

By the way Steve,i purchase a new spool of Line yesterday & have managed,quite easily as it happens to tie a QM1 with the knotless knot!To the eye though it still looks the same diameter?

Decaff, i often fish heavier than normal rigs when targetting big weights of very small fish. The main reason for this is make the rig more positive as in terms of bite indication whilst at the same time allowing you to catch a lot quicker. If all the fish are on the bottom then it stands to reason that a heavy 1g rig is going to get down to where the fish are a lot quicker than a float taking 4×12 is. Carp are very different though, but having said that if trying to catch a weight of small Carp a heavy rig can work in exactly the same way as above. The same in my experience doesnt apply with big Carp though.

For what reason do you think makes larger carp so different ?

The original poster was asking about silver fish not carp!!!!!

Sorry,we appear to have wandered off topic!!!!

Decaff, im not sure to be honest. I can only think that Carp are a lot more watchful and maybe dont spend as much time on the bottom as we think. More likely they follow the bait down as opposed to waiting for it on the bottom. A hookbait on a lighter rig will also behave more naturally.

Ally, ill leave this post alone now then. Was just trying to give some general info as regards both Carp and silvers. Thought it was developing into a good thread as well.

So did i,s’pose we can always start a new one!

Thanks carpmagic.

steve.
me and joe were having a simlair conversation(mainly onabout bolingey, whiteacres on the brain!) the other day and like you i prefer as light a float as possible for proper sized carp. we were onabout some “phantom” bites we ve missed which look unmissable fishing meat short and came to a conclusion that maybe we were fishing a bit too delicate and the fish are perhaps having a chance to move the bait alot more than we realise before we see a bite (a few times i ve struck thought id missed it and connected with a fish at half depth in the mouth)we both thought a bigger float shotted with number 8s could be the answer by showing the bites up quicker with it being more positive. i ve had simlair thoughts at woodlands through summer when after a match i ve put some bait down the side not had a bite and put my hand in to see if its there and every bit has been eaten. i then picked the hookbait up off the bottom while my dad fished and didnt even move the float! so even though i think light rigs are generally better maybe there is a place sometimes for overly heavy rigs even for proper carp??

Adam, i have experienced what you mention at bolingey where you lift and connect with a fish which is nowhere near the bottom. You automatically assume its fouled and then when you get it close its in the mouth. I think this tends to happen when a Carp goes down at speed, takes a mouthful of bait and then shoots straight back up in the water again. I havent had it happen on many other venues to be honest. Im not convinced either that a heavy rig will solve it since i have fished a gram on peg 16 at bolingey in a big wind and experienced the same thing. The benefits of light rigs at bolingey were really bought home to me in the VDE festival last year. I drew peg 38 and could catch on a 4×10 KC carpa chimp at 7m but not properly on a 0.3g diamond. Im not saying you are wrong i just think sometimes you just have to accept that a percentage of Carp are going to get away with it.

A bit off topic but something we touched on last year, try sticking a hair rig on dead depth and you will be amazed at the size of fish you will catch that you wouldn’t even have known were feeding in your swim.

Baitchef Ive done what your describing and it does work ~clap ~clap ~clap ~clap ~clap ~clap ~clap

Baitchef thats how we are fishing on bolingey a lot of the time, hard pellet hair rigged dead depth.

This thread is developing in to something very good. Steve, i did answer the original question from a silver fish point of view.

Some very interesting ideas coming out here about bigger carp and light rigs. Part of the issue here might be that when targeting big carp on commercial venues with hook baits like meat, hard 6/8ml pellets and corn. The hook bait is quite heavy and falls though the water relatively quickly. Once on the bottom. The hook bait would help with stability.

Steve, i believe from reading some of your articles. Also, from watching you at a distance at W/As and talking to others about the way you some times fish. You often seem to drag your rig and hook bait around your swim in search of bites in a different way than simply lifting and dropping to induce bites. You almost dont need stability in your rig as your working your rig so much. Im thinking that a heavier bulk down the line might change the way your hook bait would act as you work your rig.

Most of my venues have very few big carp to target. Anything over 4lb is a bonus fish to me and carp between 1lb – 3lb are the normal target fish. Also, expander pellets are the number 1 hook bait on most of my venues or small pieces of meat. Heavier shotting capacity floats seem to be better for me in these situations. However, im now wondering if im missing out on something here.

I recon there is still quite a bit to explore and it will be popular method this summer. It’s one of those methods that flys in the face of conventional methods yet can be deadly. There is still plenty of room for fishing it with a bit of finesse though. I caught a few fish last year fishing very light.in fact most of the times I caught I had to fish very light with smallish hooks. I caught a few just lifting into slight indications which proved to me what you sometimes say about Steve, when quite often fish take the bait without you ever knowing about.

Trueblue(steve) you are right i do move my bait around a lot and am always fishing with a fairly tightline between pole float and pole top. This is im sure as you point out does help me to be more direct to my hookbait and in turn hit more bites. I agree with what you say about smaller carp or F1’s particularly those in the less than 2lb bracket. Bites from this size of fish can often be magnified a great deal by a heavier more positive rig.

what about caster fishing on canals for instance. on thorne where we are fishing at the moment, i quite happily fish a 4×12 in 8 foot of water and catch really well yet when u try a heavier float u just cant catch.

imo there are far too many variables in fishing for anything to be set in stone rig wise and to say light rigs are a load of rubbish is a bit naive tbh i know i catch lots of my fish fishing lighter than normal floats and it cant be a coincidence.

@TrueBlue wrote:

This thread is developing in to something very good.

Steve, i believe from reading some of your articles. Also, from watching you at a distance at W/As and talking to others about the way you some times fish. You often seem to drag your rig and hook bait around your swim in search of bites in a different way than simply lifting and dropping to induce bites. You almost dont need stability in your rig as your working your rig so much.

I know I am not Steve but from my own experience I get more bites from dragging my rig than lifting and droping

@psb182 wrote:

I know I am not Steve but from my own experience I get more bites from dragging my rig than lifting and droping

Sorry to go off topic, but how long would you keep your bait stationary until you lift/drag/drop?

P.S. This is a brilliant thread so far.

@Joe Carass wrote:

what about caster fishing on canals for instance. on thorne where we are fishing at the moment, i quite happily fish a 4×12 in 8 foot of water and catch really well yet when u try a heavier float u just cant catch.

imo there are far too many variables in fishing for anything to be set in stone rig wise and to say light rigs are a load of rubbish is a bit naive tbh i know i catch lots of my fish fishing lighter than normal floats and it cant be a coincidence.

Jo i’m with you,that is why i used Andy Mead as an example.What works,works for probably no other reason than it was right at that time.

psb182,i too have always dragged my bait around be it on canal or commercial,i have never had a lot of joy lifting,the exception being worm.

Joe, what are your target fish on that canal with caster and are you feeding? It seems a little hit and miss to me to just be laying the rig in and allowing it to fall though the water in the hope that something might pick it up at some point in its fall. I was thought that the aim would be to find the level in the water that the fish where feeding. Then aim to get the hook bait into that area of water as fast as possible with a more direct rig. Feeding being part of the process of keeping the fish feeding at that depth. I guess its old school angling in the days before commercials and carp.

I agree with you Joe about there being so many variables. I also catch a few fish doing my thing and seem to win regularly against some very good anglers on my venues.

nah im pretty sure the roach watch it fall on there, in fact i know they do. to many times u get a bite as soon as it settles. yet a bulked rig just sits there motionless.

@Nick D wrote:

@psb182 wrote:

I know I am not Steve but from my own experience I get more bites from dragging my rig than lifting and droping

Sorry to go off topic, but how long would you keep your bait stationary until you lift/drag/drop?

P.S. This is a brilliant thread so far.

Not long maybe 2 minutes then drag to one side very slow,just move the pole very slow across your knee with your hand,once I drag it I leave it a minute or so then start again or lift and drop.Some reason I just don’t get as many bites lifting and dropping as I do dragging

Joe/Squatt,

Even on a rig with a bulk at half depth and then the same shotting as a strung out rig, below the bulk, the tail still gets pulled towards the bulk initially, then the strung out “light” part of the rig comes down more in a heap. This is more evident on still or slow moving venues where there is no tow to straighten the tail out. The hook bait, once past the bulk falls no slower than on a proper strung out rig, just that becuase it’s falling more in a pile and less on a tight line you either don’t see the bite, or it behaves slightly differently. THere’s no doubt in my mind the best rigs for clever roach are strung out, laid in in a line and kept tight to the float. Bites are as it touches down most of the time. Sometimes the best shotting pattern below a bulk on a slow moving water is an inverse taper so more shot near the hook and less coming towards the bulk. It forces the hook to stay away from the bulk and keeps a tighter line.
A cracking post guys.

Lifting and dropping often works for me. Especially when using expander pellets. Some days it can be almost the only way to get regular bites or a good way of speeding baits up. If its a lifting and dropping day then i lift my rig up every 20/30 seconds. I do have days when allowing the float to move with the undertow works best for me. Dragging the float against the undertow never seems to work. Maybe that is something to do with me usually fishing with heavier rigs than others seem to use.

Great post this. Generally, in my experience, heavier rigs are best on heavily stocked waters when a quantity of smaller fish are the target, be they silvers or stockie carp. Lighter rigs IMO are best suited to venues where bites are less frequent, from larger fish or on venues with a lower stocking density.

If there is a heuristic that makes most sense to apply, I think it is “use the lightest float that you can get away with”. There are obviously exceptions (eg, speed fishing for small fish), but, in general, a lighter rig will get you more bites and result in more fish in the net. This is obviously assuming that the rig is heavy enough to give you control, as a rig towing uncontrollably will definitely result in less bites and less fish in the net.

I definitely think that people over-engineer shotting patterns though. I have seen people using three number 10 droppers with double sweetcorn on the hook! Or any kind of dropper shot with a big lump of paste! What is the point?! Having said that, I do like to use a slightly spread (ie, each shot 1-2″ apart) bulk of small (eg, number 8 or 10) shot rather than an olivette. I am convinced that the fish is less likely to ‘feel’ the bulk and eject the bait.

good thread-and one in which an underwater camera would benefit immensily.
Surely, species-particuarly bream once they start to bronze tinge seems to like a heavier overdepth rig-perhaps this is due to the angle of their mouths and position when feeding-even if hanging around in mid-water.
The shape of mouth and tipping up seems different from other bottom feeder such as carp despite their barbules.
could it be angle of top of head touching or sppoking when lines brushes?
However, surely large factor for all species must be clarity of water- partic. right now even if mildish obviously lack of wind & therefore undertow -must accenate this as does shape of float and shotting as they must see the bait more clearly and have to bother to follow it down or take it whilst bit falling?
in milder and indyier weather, surely fish don’t have time to really inspect bait and rely on vibration and other senses.
In conditions like we have now -and when fish don’t need to feed then surely a lighter float and observable shotting pattern with smaller shot(just like in the mags according to seasonal time0 produce the goods.
That experts in both carp ,Steve and Adam and silvers with Joe fish lighter rigs in calm conditions tells me why they catch more when others fail-even though the .1g = 1foot seems a good general shotting yardstick.
More on this please!

Quote from Wightagler – That experts in both carp ,Steve and Adam and silvers with Joe fish lighter rigs in calm conditions tells me why they catch more when others fail-even though the .1g = 1foot seems a good general shotting yardstick.
More on this please!

If it was as simple as using very light rigs like Steve, Adam and Joe are suggesting. Then any fool with a fishing rod or pole could switch to using only the lightest possible rigs and become a top class match angler or at least improve there catches. This is simply not the case as most anglers are already using much lighter rigs than the basic guide i suggested for choice of float shotting capacity/depth.

This in my opinion is the first big problem in why many anglers catch very little or are pools fodder in matches at most levels from club to high class open matches.

Clearly, there are other issues involved in why some anglers catch more fish than others. However, i dont believe that using the lightest rig possible is the deciding factor in why some anglers struggle and others are classed as top match anglers.

I except that there are some very specific situations when lighter rigs might give a small advantage and be better than a heavier rig. However, following the basic guide of 0.10 for every 1 foot of depth. Then adding shotting capacity to the choice of float to counteract the conditions is a better starting point in my opinion. Then adapting the choice of float and shotting capacity to what the fish are doing on any given day. Its the same with shotting patterns. Start with a few basic shotting patterns. Bulk and strung out rigs. Then adapt those shotting patterns to the conditions and what the fish are doing. Bossing the conditions with the right choice of size of float to me is more likely to produce better results for the vast majority of anglers in most situations than fishing as lighter float as possible.

I think that the basic guide of 0.1g for every foot of depth is actually wrong. As noted by carpmagic and others above, in most situations, unless there is adverse weather or strong tow, this is too heavy.

I honestly do not believe that using a float that is too light is “the first big problem why many anglers catch very little or are pools fodder in matches at most levels”.

Nor do I believe that the advantage of using a light rig is ‘small’. I have fished a number of venues where using a rig that is too heavy can be the difference between a match-winning catch and not even making the frame. I have definitely had days where you sense that the fish are ‘following the bait down’ as it drops through the water. Using a heavier rig than you need to on days like these is definitely going to result in fewer bites and less fish in the net. It can quite often result in more foul-hooked fish too, in my experience.

Each to their own, though. I am quite happy for people who draw next to me to get their heavy rigs out whilst I sack-up on lighter gear! lol