Cane Bristles

[TF_drawbag1967]

What are the advantages, and in which situation would you use one.

[TF_Pikey]

I think they are brilliant as they are very sensitive.

However it seems that it isn’t easy to make floats incorporating them as if they are just stuck into the body of the float then they are easily broken.

[TF_yamma]

very sensitive i use them for most my fishing,the amount of chianti,s that get sold year after year must be staggering, not that i use them lol.

[TF_yamma]

@Pikey wrote:

I think they are brilliant as they are very sensitive.

However it seems that it isn’t easy to make floats incorporating them as if they are just stuck into the body of the float then they are easily broken.

I tinker about with my floats and i use cocktail sticks sanded down and glued in, couple of coats of sealer and there fine.

[TF_pr@ngler]

Hang on whilst I get on my soapbox . . .

The sensitivity of a float bristle is determined by the volume of water that would need to be displaced to sink it.

So, assuming that you keep the same amount of bristle sticking out of the water, the sensitivity of the bristle is determined only by how thick it is, and not by what it is made from.

Sure, bristles made of wire or fibre are sensitive, but only because those materials allow the bristles to be thin. A cane bristle could be thick or thin, so the material does not necessarily bring any special qualities regarding sensitivity.

When we’ve had this debate before people have said that the weight of the float and its shape also influence its sensitivity. All that’s true, but here we’re just talking about the bristle.

All other things being equal, its the diameter of the bristle and not the material that its made from that decides how sensitive it is.

Lecture over . . .

[TF_Jon W]

Surely it would take more force to sink a bristle made of a material that float (eg cane) than it would a material that sinks (eg wire) if they were the same shape and size? Therefore the sensitivity being determined by the force required to make it sink?

For example I’m sure if you shotted 2 pole floats, one with a 30mm, 1mm cane bristle and one with a 30mm 1mm wire bristle so one inch of each bristle was visable, then put on say a nr 10 shot, it is likely the cane bristle would sink but still be visible but the wire bristle would sink out of view?

I dont know the science behind it all, it’s just what I assume…

J

[TF_pr@ngler]

Jon, that amount of metal would require more buoyancy in the rest of the float to hold it out of the water. The weight of metal in the bristle is cancelled out by the buoyancy of the rest of the float.

[TF_Hillbilly]

Yep that is exactly how it works pr@angler

[Anonymous]

So what you are saying is that a bristle made out of wire acts 100% the same as a bristle made out of a different material such as hollow plastic or cane if they are of the same diameter and length and used with the same size and shape of float?

And, a cane bristle does not need more shot to dot it right down when compared to a wire bristle used with the same float body?

Also, wire bristles are not extremely difficult to shot correctly when compared to other types of bristle materials used with the same type and size of float. The only difference is in diameter of the bristle?

[TF_matchpleasure]

i quote
pro@angler
All other things being equal, its the diameter of the bristle and not the material that its made from that decides how sensitive it is.

What planet are you on! so yer saying that if you had a float with say,a balsa bristle or hollow plastic bristle of the same diameter , they both have the same boyancy? i dont think so! i think small fish would tell you differently mate.
~hand

[TF_Gary]

In terms of advantages/ disadvantages (and completely side-stepping the buoyancy/ sensitivity issue), I much prefer hollow plastic bristles to cane, as plastic bristles let light through, making them easier to see when the sun is in front of you. When the sun is behind you, the advantage of a plastic (as opposed to a cane) bristle is significantly reduced.

[TF_pr@ngler]

Trueblue, I am nearly saying that! A float with a wire bristle will behave a bit differently because it will need extra buoyancy in the body to counteract the weight of the metal. But in the scheme of things, this difference is tiny and unlikely to affect the sensitivity. I agree with your last two paragraphs.

Matchpleasure, I’ll be interested if you are on another planet! But, you just can’t separate out the material of the bristle when you consider the buoyancy of the float. The bristle is attached to the rest of the float and that is holding the bristle out of the water.

By the way, don’t blame me for this. Blame Archimedes.

Gary’s points about visibility are a different matter and he is spot on about that.

[deemanParticipant]

@pr@ngler wrote:

By the way, don’t blame me for this. Blame Archimedes.

Eureka ka ka ka

~clap ~clap ~clap

[TF_pr@ngler]

Outstanding! Man after my own heart!

[TF_andykoiParticipant]

dave, ~hand all my hand made floats have the antennas fixed to the stems including cane

[TF_gazmalman]

Proangler, I used to think that archimedes principle was the be all and end all. The problem is that you are forgeting about inertia/acceration, when a fish bites its not putting a number 12 shot on the line, its moving the hook and therefore the shot and the float.

Andy how are you drilling 0.8mm fibre tips without them splitting to run the wire into them?

[TF_Wheely Crap Angler]

@gazmalman wrote:

Andy how are you drilling 0.8mm fibre tips without them splitting to run the wire into them?

~shh ~shh ~think ~think ~clap ~clap

[TF_drawbag1967]

Thanks for the floats today Andy there the b******s
http://www.andysfloats.com

[TF_Hillbilly]

Ok so lets say we make two identical float bodies from some balsa wood of a consistant density. To one body we fit a wire stem and tip and to the other a wire stem and a cane tip of the same diameter as the wire one. Both floats are then sealed and painted with the same number of coats of paint. Now both of the floats are shotted up to leave say 10mm of the tip above the surface. It is fact that when an object made from more than one material is placed in a liquid it is tha AVERAGE density of the object which determines if it floats or sinks. If the object is more dense than the liquid it sinks, if less it floats. In this case the liquid is water and both objects (our floats) are less dense and will float. However the one with the wire tip will have a slightly higher average density than the one with the cane tip and when the floats are both shotted to leave say 10mm of tip protruding above the water it will take slightly less shot than the cane tipped one to achieve the same setting. Now to be strictly accurate the wire tipped float will take slightly less weight to sink from this position than the cane tipped one. Because it is AVERAGE densities we are dealing with and not just the density of the tip material the difference will be miniscule. The reason for this is that we are dealing with the difference in average density between two cylinders (one from each float) 1mm dia x 10mm long where the average density is that of each respective whole float (including the shot) and not simply the densities of the materials used for the tips. However like Gaz says there are other factors that need to be taken into account when actually fishing such as the effects of surface tension on the paints used to colour the tips but whatever the case the difference will be minute.

[TF_pr@ngler]

I agree with every word of that but I don’t think it’s the response of a Red Neck!

[TF_Hillbilly]

Some of us Rednecks did go to school 🙂

[TF_Gary]

At this rate, I will be able to put time spent reading Total-Fishing down for my CPD hours!

Excellent physics lesson there, Hillbilly!

[FlyingScotParticipant]

I’ve seen this debate a few times and never replied but as Hillbilly has explained it almost correctly here’s the definitive answer.

1. The force required to submerge an object of volume V in a fluid is equal to the force required to displace an equal volume of the fluid. This is Archimedes principle put simply.

2. When a rig is set so that you have a bit of bristle showing then the force that counteracts the “Archimedesâ€

[TF_GLEBE1]

‘kin hell!! there’s some proper nerd’s on here lol~clap ~clap

[TF_Gary]

Top stuff!

[TF_Jon W]

Interesting stuff.

[Anonymous]

So, can someone please explain why cane bristled floats in particular are thought to be easier to read bites with than any other bristle type material? This is my belief based on experience.

Why are wire bristled floats believed to be the best type of float for B+J fishing? In my canal days. I changed the bristles on many of my canal floats to suit this style of fishing. The diameters of the bristles never changed from the plastic or cane bristles in the original floats. The material used for the bristle changed with positive results. Many top canal anglers believe that wire bristled floats are much better than plastic or cane bristles for B+J fishing on very difficult canals.

[TF_pr@ngler]

TB, there could be any number of reasons. Here are three.

First of all we just have a mind set and simply believe what we believe.

Secondly, there is some truth in it. You might have replaced plastic bristles with wire of the same diameter, but others may have used thinner wire. Wire bristles appear to be more sensitive because they can be made so thin.

On top of that there’s an element of confidence. Because you thought you were doing something better, then you would have fished better and caught more.

[TF_drawbag1967]

I wish I hadn’t asked.

[TF_pr@ngler]

Don’t say that. This has been one of the most interesting threads for a while. Asking questions helps everyone learn.

And I feel duty-bound to buy some of Hillbilly’s floats now too.

[TF_SteveMay]

Now now lads, lets get back to basics…I buy Hillbilly floats because they’re good. Nowt to do with Archibloodymedes.

[TF_Hillbilly]

Right let me put my point another way. Instead of having two floats made of several components let us look at two all balsa floats of the same size and shape but one made from a light balsa and the other from a more dense heavy balsa. We shot both floats so that the tips of say 4mm diameter protrude 6mm above the surface. We now have the same situation as with the wire and cane tipped floats in that the AVERAGE density of each float and therefore the part of each of the floats above the water level is different. In other words one tip is more buoyant than the other although they both consist of a balsa cylinder 4mm diameter by 6mm long. Now our friend Mr Archimedes states that when these tips are submerged the force (buoyancy) trying to make them return to the surface is calculated as follows. Upward force (buoyancy) = the weight of the water displaced MINUS the weight of the body which displaced it. It is obvious that the tip of the float made from the less dense balsa will weigh slightly less than the one made from the more dense balsa. Thus the weight of water displaced by both floats is the same but the upward forces (buoyancy) trying to return the float to the surface will be slightly more for the float made from the less dense lighter balsa. These upward forces are cancelled out by the addition of shot of the exact same weight (as the answers to the formulas in each case) so that each float just sinks of its own accord. It can now be seen that it takes more weight to sink the whole or a portion of a more buoyant object than a less buoyant one even though their volumes are the same. The formula of > weight of water displaced minus weight of body displacing it = upward (buoyant) force on the body applies in all cases of solid objects immersed in water. It is now easy to see why the cane tipped float only takes a minuscule amount more weight to sink than a wire tipped one. It is because when working out the formula you have to treat the tip of each float as having the same AVERAGE density as the rest of the float it is attached to. From all this it can be seen that as the only real difference between our cane and wire tipped floats is the actual tips then the average density of each float will be very similar. That being the case then the difference in the effective weights of the tips will be minimal when using the formula to calculate how much extra weight is required to sink each float. ~think

[FlyingScotParticipant]

In answer to TrueBlues questions there are a couple of things to consider.

First is that all this balancing forces stuff ignores surface tension. When you’re looking at bristles with less than 1mm diameter – and maybe 0.5mm dia for wire – then the force required to sink the bristle is about the same as a gnat’s fart (to be technical) so surface tension will have a bigger impact. The surface tension will never be identical for two bristles made of widely different materials (metal and fibre) even if they are painted the same. The overall mass and drag on the rig also comes into play. If you compared two floats with identical bodies but one had a wire stem and bristle and the other had a fibre stem and bristle then the fibre one will have more shot down the rig. The extra shot will create extra drag.

The other thing to consider is that the bristle is only one part of the float. How it behaves in the water will depend on loads of things like body shape, stem material and length, eye position etc etc.

Bottom line to this is use what you’re confident in but don’t get too hung up on what a bristle is made of – diameter is far more important.

[TF_Hillbilly]

FlyingScot you are spot on about the surface tension and inertia issues as these will both have a bearing on how the float reacts to a bite. The Archimedes principle I have demonstrated only calculates the extra weight required to sink the floats tip and does not consider either surface tension on the tips surface finish or the inertia required to start the whole floats downward movement. ~clap

[TF_wightangler]

really good thread- so thanks.

whilst, on float bristles- how about colour?
on one water the north side in non-sunny cconditions usually means black-however when its choppy and near the island shadow crease and reflections- the water becomes ‘dappled’ and the width or length of black tip suddenly becomes much bigger if dotted down requiring a larger diameter and possibly heavier rig where the condiions don’t warrant a heavier rig.
Now, and this is where i have a problem, a red painted tip becomes visible yet still dark but with enough colour to stand out- whilst a hollow red tip almost disapprears in the white
water reflection and does’nt stand out- is this because of the light entering the hollow tip but ,in practice being too light to appear dark as a contrast and colour.
I can see, and use ,the light benefits of hollow red tips- but in many situations like the conditions described above -find painted dark or trad red tips easier to see?
Is this a personal thing(i have difficulty with yellow tips), as the same hollow tips will stand out at a western or eastern angle.
I stress this is a winter condition as well, but black diameters ‘thin’ so needing to be impractically thicker for silvers on relatively calm days.
What tip finishes can be rubbed off in practice
(black marker seems to ‘dirty’ red hollows)to make changes without recourse to having 3 or 4 rigs ready to cope?

[TF_Hillbilly]

Try a small piece of black silicon tube over just the very end of your red hollow tips. This will thicken the last couple of mm up a bit without mucking up the paint job on the tip and of course give you a multi coloured tip that you should be able to see. The black bit of tip will stand out against the grey water and the red bit in the dark water.

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