Mark Downes

[TF_LolB]

Read Marks interview in M/F very interesting, his thoughts on future of team fishing. Is it time we fished our team matches the same as Europe. A pro League and a club league as do in France. All Matches fished to fips rules on a varity of waters. All leagues to be regional ie Kent, Sussex, Surrey.I’m sure someone will say you wont be able to fish a feeder, but we can always allow that. I think this will make it more interesting. Make your views known

[TF_LolB]

What doe’s it take to get some interaction on this forum. 149 have read this post and no comments so i guess everyone agrees with me the. great just have to convince the angling trust now.

[TF_geepsterParticipant]

There’s a group of anglers who would love to fish this way in the UK, and a (large) group who would rather chew their toes off. The big difference in the UK is the strength of commercials, that give the angler the choice. In a lot of European countries waters and rules are controlled by the national federation and they have the power to create rules by which everyone must abide (eg max 13m pole limits). Mark is right in terms of top level team fishing. But what % of the UK’s match anglers are interested in top level team fishing?

[TF_Kagger TNB]

Here’s my view then.

Who cares what Mark Downes thinks/wants?

Some people have been banging on for years about fishing matches to international rules.

The vast majority of us aren’t interested.

There’s more chance of hell freezing over than there is of me personally fishing a three hour match. All that effort, preperation, expense, travelling time, just to have to pack up after three hours? No thanks.

And look at why team fishing is on its arse anyway, the same top teams/anglers winning all the time, the expense, etc. None of that has changed.

[Anonymous]

If there was a pro league with proper funding. Then, we would see team fishing at the top level increase across the country. Not sure the rules would be such an issue. We have to deal with rule changes from commercial venue to commercial venue.

Club leagues might be a more difficult one to sell. However, without the pro teams. Many clubs might feel they have a chance to compete on a level playing field again. The top teams of the past where part of the reason for the decline in team fishing in the late 80s and 90s.

I fished in the biggest winter league in the country way back when team fishing was popular. Biggest reason for it being so popular in my area was that the league was based on weight and the payouts where very well thought out it gave every angler/team the chance to win something worth while. Once the league switched over to points. It fell apart like all the other leagues because of the dominance of a few top teams!

[TF_LolB]

And of course the same anglers don’t win on commercials do they. I have team fished since the 80s and have always come away from a match learning something. matches don’t have to be three hours and as i said matches would be fished on different types of venue. My whole point was that with a pro league this would allow teams who struggle to compete against the big teams a chance to fish against teams of the same standard. And of course some teams would go and up some would drop down. At the end of the season.

[TF_orexina]

Very true Kagger and TB. Can you imagine teams from the south travelling all the way up north to fish the National for 3 hours. Not only that they get beat by the superstars as well. I like to go fishing for as long as possible and 3 hours is not long enough.
I fish 4 times a week now I don’t work and 99.9% are matches. The matches are with the same blokes I’ve fished with for the last 30 years. These blokes all competed at a high level in the various winter leagues and opens and team matches. They also wouldn’t be interested in 3 hour matches.

Would it not be a bad idea if we persuaded the continentals to change their rules so they fish 5 hours and also that they learn how to fish the feeder.

[TF_Kagger TNB]

So Lol, you want to fish to FIPS rules, except you’ll allow feeder fishing, and make the matches longer?

It’ll never happen mate.

We had a county based team competition. It was the winter league.

Norfolk and Suffolk w/league at one time had 10 teams, plus a waiting list of teams to get in(only ten years ago).

Squads were 20+ in some cases.

It’s all gone. People aren’t interested.

Yes some people are a lot more consistent on commercials than others, but you know what, I could take my mrs out for half a days tuition having never fished before, and she could then go on a match and admittedly given a bit of rub, could win it off the right peg.

That doesn’t happen when you start talking about teams and leagues.

[TF_One fish]

I now enjoy every match I fish, my choice of venue and if I fish. When I team fished it was not anywhere near as enjoyable,out 14 hours , loads of travelling and caught little ( I was with successful teams ).

Not knocking serious team fishing but I have done my bit as have a lot of my friends, no interest in the continental format.But change it to suit ours, add in commercials and a good home based system would work.Obviously no benefit to the world champs scenario.

[TF_ian1980]

And what does it lead to?theres only the winter league that leads to a final,and in that the “big” teams win the leagues every yr so theres no incentive to enter it as a team to not be able to progress.Its turned more into a shut shop than ever before fishing against a set of anglers that fish 4/5 times a week,where at one time a team used to have 1 or 2 anglers that fished a few times a week the rest of the team was ordinary workers that just had a raw talent and passion to fish on the next level now the good weekend angler has gone now.You read the results of the festivals now its the same faces that make the top10 just in different order most work in the fishing industry so they speak between themselves and poor old joe bloggs doesn’t stand a chance,so they go down the fish opens to win individually route.I am sure others wont agree but after team fishing for 15yrs prior to our team folding a few yrs ago that’s my opinion

[TF_LolB]

did anyone take time to read my post and understand it at all, it’s not about getting anglers back into team fishing at all. it’s about getting the lower teams a fairer competition, and the tops teams fishing against each other.And as i said these would be regional leagues so the would be no long trips. and of course there would be finals for both divisions. We need ideas to keep team fishing fresh.

[TF_Kagger TNB]

@LolB wrote:

did anyone take time to read my post and understand it at all, it’s not about getting anglers back into team fishing at all. it’s about getting the lower teams a fairer competition, and the tops teams fishing against each other.And as i said these would be regional leagues so the would be no long trips. and of course there would be finals for both divisions. We need ideas to keep team fishing fresh.

But there are no teams. Team fishing around here consists of 4-5 man teams on small leagues. The biggest team (league) match in our area is 40pgs, and some teams (three I think) didn’t fish the last round due to lack of anglers/interest.

You’re talking about setting up leagues for anglers who aren’t interested, and teams which don’t exist, and whichever way you cut it, travelling will be involved. People don’t want to travel even 30-40 miles anymore to fish.

[TF_LolB]

yet again kagger you have failed to read original post this set up will be for existing winter league teams.Once again this new league set up would be for teams already fishing angling trust winter leagues

[TF_ian1980]

they’ve already tried a premier league which fizzled out a few yrs ago we actually fished in it for the first yr do know how much it cost us to travel spend the night n practise at gold valley approx. £350 a man we soon pulled out of it like many others

[TF_Z12Bagger]

The problem is and will always be better teams will always rise to the top, whether that’s on local regional teams or on a wider scale, however you divide it there will be better teams and teams which struggle to compete, and a lot comes down to cost of team fishing, I love team fishing, but there is little reward unless you are in one of the top teams, let’s face it when you look at Dorking/starlits/Barnsley with anglers fishing 3/4 Times a week, the average angler fishing once a week won’t compete.

[TF_LolB]

And that’s why two divisions would make sense. if cost was a factor in team fishing we would not be doing it. we do it inspite of the cost.

[TF_Kagger TNB]

@LolB wrote:

yet again kagger you have failed to read original post this set up will be for existing winter league teams.Once again this new league set up would be for teams already fishing angling trust winter leagues

Well sometimes I can make a mistake. I remember when i was a kid, failing a spelling test. Nobody’s perfect.

Just in case I had made a mistake I read your original post. Then I read it again.

I can’t see any mention of “existing winter league teams”, or “already fishing the angling trust winter league”. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to where these points are made.

With regard to that point anyway, I didn’t realise that any current AT winter leagues were spread over huge geographical area’s. It will be a massive step forward if leagues are to become organised on a more local basis, lets say, within county. I’m sure it hasn’t been done before. Those people already fishing will be so gratefull they only have to travel ‘within county’, and Crusty old codgers all over the country will be dusting off their wicker baskets to fish their local league. Perhaps we’ll even see the return of the Norfolk&Suffolk league. Oh hang on, thats two counties….

I do like the idea of splitting existing leagues into seperate divisions tho’. Those leagues which are struggling for teams and running with just a few teams will do so much better as two divisions of three or four teams. What a cracking idea.

How about you and Mr Downs try and make a well known phrase out of the following words:-

nail, in, the, coffin, last ….

[TF_Slider]

@Kagger TNB wrote:

So Lol, you want to fish to FIPS rules, except you’ll allow feeder fishing, and make the matches longer?

It’ll never happen mate.

We had a county based team competition. It was the winter league.

Norfolk and Suffolk w/league at one time had 10 teams, plus a waiting list of teams to get in(only ten years ago).

Squads were 20+ in some cases.

It’s all gone. People aren’t interested.

Yes some people are a lot more consistent on commercials than others, but you know what, I could take my mrs out for half a days tuition having never fished before, and she could then go on a match and admittedly given a bit of rub, could win it off the right peg.

That doesn’t happen when you start talking about teams and leagues.

That paragraph has got to be up there with the most ridiculous things ever written on a fishing forum ! Unless of course your Mrs is Emma Pickering !!!

[TF_Kagger TNB]

So Emma Pickering is the only lady angler capable of winning a match then?

Also, haven’t you ever been on a match where a complete numpty won ‘cos they were on the right peg?

You see that bit where it says “given a bit of rub”, and that other bit where it says “off the right peg”.

Did you miss those?

I stand by what I said.

Edit.

And to add to the above, the point i was trying to make, was that on any given day, an individual has more chance of a result than a so called ‘lesser’ team has against the top teams

[TF_joffmiester]

@LolB wrote:

Read Marks interview in M/F very interesting, his thoughts on future of team fishing. Is it time we fished our team matches the same as Europe. A pro League and a club league as do in France. All Matches fished to fips rules on a varity of waters. All leagues to be regional ie Kent, Sussex, Surrey.I’m sure someone will say you wont be able to fish a feeder, but we can always allow that. I think this will make it more interesting. Make your views known

I think anything is possible IF THE PRIZE FUND IS BIG ENOUGH you only have to look at the fisho .Ok its a individual but when you look each round is made up of 130 anglers and we all know commercial pegging is tight yet every year its full why ?? because of the Prize fund
last years winter league final was a joke for the winners £1000 for first 5 years ago it £5000

getting back to the cips rules matches they can be expensive for the average angler with the amount of G/B and bait for 4 hours fishing or even less .bait checks are must if you are limiting anglers to the same bait as we all know rule bending goes on in all competitions we tried to get a league up and running in leicestershire but i’m sorry to say the interest was poor just the same couple of teams
Ive walked along winter leagues this year its the same teams there and there abouts and most of the other teams are groups made up .what would happen if one of these made up groups qualified for a semi a 100 miles away ??? well i’d of thought a few would drop out
i Talk to Mark quiet often and i loved the sensas challenge fished to cips rules i even have a few days off to practice but thats the only time you can get 25 teams 5 together and the Prize is a trip to the final in France and some spending money
ive said for a long time our match calenders are full of good individual matches with plenty of prize money .We need a proper governing body for Team fishing proper sponsors and proper funding to make team fishing worth doing

[TF_LolB]

Kagger m8 i hold my hands up, i could have made it clearer. Those of us who do team fishing in spite of the cost and always will. Having fished a cpl of matches in France there aren’t any pools and to enter a match costs around 10-12 qiud and that normally includes food after the match. If you get in the top ten there are points to be won and also tackle vouchers. But the Major change will be a 13 m limit so we will all have to dust cobwebs of our old rods.

[TF_Kagger TNB]

I haven’t read the article LolB. Perhaps I should have.

For my part, I’ve been back in the game about three years after a five year break.

The biggest change for me has been the lack of big team team matches.

The team i fished for won our w/league for every year bar one in the 7/8 years i fished for them.

I loved it.

I’d love to be able to rekindle those type of matches. The prep, the practice, the anticipation, the matches themselves, with breakfast, bank runners etc, and the collective sense of satisfaction or dissapointment.

I guess we’re both cut from the same ‘fishing cloth’, but I just don’t think it’ll ever happen again.

[TF_LolB]

you could be right m8 i fish mainly canal leagues. but i try to get on the rivers as much as i can. my last trip to France i fished the Somme at Abertville What a river is stuffed with fish.

[TF_Slider]

@Kagger TNB wrote:

So Emma Pickering is the only lady angler capable of winning a match then?

Also, haven’t you ever been on a match where a complete numpty won ‘cos they were on the right peg?

You see that bit where it says “given a bit of rub”, and that other bit where it says “off the right peg”.

Did you miss those?

I stand by what I said.

Edit.

And to add to the above, the point i was trying to make, was that on any given day, an individual has more chance of a result than a so called ‘lesser’ team has against the top teams

No Emma is not the only lady angler capable of winning, however what you are saying is that the average level of commercial anglers is so poor and that the venues are so peggy you could teach your non angling wife in half a day enough to win a match which frankly is nonsense.

I will admit that in the middle of winter almost anyone could win a match when the fish are shoaled very tight but this really is the exception rather than the rule and even then you would need a certain level of ability.

If commercial fishing was so easy why is it that the same anglers are winning all the time because based on what you are saying the angler on the best peg would win every match …

I really grates on me reading comments like yours as it suggests that commercial fishing and those that choose to fish commercials are of a lesser standard and ability than those who fish rivers and canals.

In actual fact each discipline has its own skill set that takes time and effort master and I dont think any one type of fishing is harder than the next.

I used to love fishing the rivers and canals and team fishing was big but if I can take what i hear in the tackle shop as truth then its clear that anglers (even some real die hard team anglers) no longer want the expense and commitment of fishing venues which rarely produce good fair fishing anymore when they can go and fish good sized matches against good anglers on managed fisheries.

If im being totally honest there are no peggier venues than rivers and canals where an end peg or feature will usually dominate, even worse a shoal of bream that literally anyone including your non angling wife could realistically fish for and frame on a feeder rod !

[TF_Z12Bagger]

To make these type of things work put simly there needs to be a major sponsor to get teams interested both from a team point of view and individual point of view, personally I think lesser teams will enter leagues if they think they have a chance of individual glory, from my experience a lot of the teams in the leagues I fish know they aren’t going to win as an team and fish it as individuals purely to fish an bigger match with the chance of glory, from my area I could tell you the teams which will qualify for the semi’s of the winter league before its starts, and I guess that is the same over the country. Regional areas would be a great idea but put practically there isn’t enough teams fishing for it to work, or enough reward. Unfortunately team fishing is on its last legs and I can’t see it improving. People want to fish where they are most confident in covering the cost of there day and getting a nice days fishing. I love team fishing but can I see myself doing it in years to come, probably not, 11/12 hours days, to maybe cover my costs of the day.

[TF_Kagger TNB]

I wasn’t going to comment further, because the discussion we’ve got into is a bit OT, but answer this honestly Mark.

Take two anglers, one a competent river angler who doesn’t fish commercials, and the other a competent commercial angler who doesn’t fish rivers.

They have to change places and fish the other anglers matches.

Who do you think would adapt to their new situation the best/quickest?

I fish both, and enjoy both, but for me there is only answer.

[TF_NoCarpPlease]

Rather than retyping it … I’ll just post what I put on another forum (which is heavily team oriented)

Original post from Chris:
Everyone years ago moaned like crappity smack that match fishing should be more professional, now every crappity smacker don`t want to fish a professional match Undecided. Don`t make sense to me, forget what the ATs taking for the moment (I must add that the AT stewards at the weekend were there for the love of the sport and never got paid just their expenses, which I have on good authority).
Seven thousand pound to the winning team to cover the costs of the World club champs and anglers bottled out.
Some teams may have not wanted to fish due to funds BUT I know teams did not want to fish against Barnsley and Dorking because they are too good.
This why team fishing is going lady lumps up IMO no one wants to learn anymore.

My reply:

Chris,
I think that you’ve hit the nail obliquely with your first sentence. Those at the top of the pile (you might call them vested interests?) with a voice in the media and committees were certainly calling for more professionalism …. but in the end team fishing has eaten itself!

From my perspective, aside from all the other contributory factors that also apply to individual competitions (carp puddles, petrol prices, cost of competing, alternative leisure activities, etc.) there are 4 compounding issues with team fishing. Bearing in mind that i haven’t done serious team fishing in 18 years – but can see it from both sides of the fence.

The key theme is that decent sized fishing matches (team or individual) are completely dependent on the less successful people turning up week in, week out in all weathers. To succeed in this you need to provide at least
a) some chance of relative success
b) reasonable chance of a decent days fishing

IMO team dominance is a bit of a red herring – how many years did 12 teams of 12 turn up to the Surrey WL to get beaten up by Dorking?

so my 4 issues
1. team practice – the more committed teams tip the balance too far and also can degrade the fishing on narrow canals and harder venues
2. increased team pools and section 2nd pools – takes the chance of a “red letter day” away from people who are realistically only fishing for an individual result (the majority of us). Note – the money element is not absolute – just relative to the entry fee/pool (as highlighted by many above)
3. “fair” venues for team matches …. again reducing the chance for the ordinary joe to get a section or main list prize.
4. The Drennan Super League. A serious summer competition aside from the National meant much more year round commitment to team fishing – which many people just didn’t enjoy and voted with their feet year round to go to individual and local competition. Remember that for most of us the winter league was 6 guaranteed 144 peg opens, rather than a team match.

I regret that it’s likely to be beyond the point of no return now …. we needed to look after the 3rd & 4th tier teams – rather than the premier and aspirational. I’d suggest they’re not going to come back.
The inevitable end result is an elite of 4 to 6 teams – with maybe 10 or so more able to compete. We’ve got the “professional” premier league that (some) people were calling for – but lost a lot of what made match fishing in the UK great along the way ….

Shame really!!

[TF_allyParticipant]

Some great points there. It’s very evident on my local WL league that although the amount of teams is down, the standard of angler is far better than ever. Several other leagues have folded and the better teams have come and joined. This in turn seems to have lost us some of the weaker teams. It’s now harder to win the section against 7 than it ever was with 12, and the draw really can make a huge difference.

[TF_Chris VandervleitParticipant]

@NoCarpPlease wrote:

Rather than retyping it … I’ll just post what I put on another forum (which is heavily team oriented)

Original post from Chris:
Everyone years ago moaned like crappity smack that match fishing should be more professional, now every crappity smacker don`t want to fish a professional match Undecided. Don`t make sense to me, forget what the ATs taking for the moment (I must add that the AT stewards at the weekend were there for the love of the sport and never got paid just their expenses, which I have on good authority).
Seven thousand pound to the winning team to cover the costs of the World club champs and anglers bottled out.
Some teams may have not wanted to fish due to funds BUT I know teams did not want to fish against Barnsley and Dorking because they are too good.
This why team fishing is going lady lumps up IMO no one wants to learn anymore.

My reply:

Chris,
I think that you’ve hit the nail obliquely with your first sentence. Those at the top of the pile (you might call them vested interests?) with a voice in the media and committees were certainly calling for more professionalism …. but in the end team fishing has eaten itself!

From my perspective, aside from all the other contributory factors that also apply to individual competitions (carp puddles, petrol prices, cost of competing, alternative leisure activities, etc.) there are 4 compounding issues with team fishing. Bearing in mind that i haven’t done serious team fishing in 18 years – but can see it from both sides of the fence.

The key theme is that decent sized fishing matches (team or individual) are completely dependent on the less successful people turning up week in, week out in all weathers. To succeed in this you need to provide at least
a) some chance of relative success
b) reasonable chance of a decent days fishing

IMO team dominance is a bit of a red herring – how many years did 12 teams of 12 turn up to the Surrey WL to get beaten up by Dorking?

so my 4 issues
1. team practice – the more committed teams tip the balance too far and also can degrade the fishing on narrow canals and harder venues
2. increased team pools and section 2nd pools – takes the chance of a “red letter day” away from people who are realistically only fishing for an individual result (the majority of us). Note – the money element is not absolute – just relative to the entry fee/pool (as highlighted by many above)
3. “fair” venues for team matches …. again reducing the chance for the ordinary joe to get a section or main list prize.
4. The Drennan Super League. A serious summer competition aside from the National meant much more year round commitment to team fishing – which many people just didn’t enjoy and voted with their feet year round to go to individual and local competition. Remember that for most of us the winter league was 6 guaranteed 144 peg opens, rather than a team match.

I regret that it’s likely to be beyond the point of no return now …. we needed to look after the 3rd & 4th tier teams – rather than the premier and aspirational. I’d suggest they’re not going to come back.
The inevitable end result is an elite of 4 to 6 teams – with maybe 10 or so more able to compete. We’ve got the “professional” premier league that (some) people were calling for – but lost a lot of what made match fishing in the UK great along the way ….

Shame really!!

http://simplematchfishing.co.uk/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1380491237

This is where the posts come from if anybody is intrested.

[Author]

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