Painting top kits grey

[TF_badgerParticipant]

I know some top lads that swear by it, and they get results where ever they go. So is it worth doing? Opinions please.

[TF_Kagger TNB]

I’ve done it in the past. Certainly didn’t do any harm

[TF_boss baitParticipant]

@badger wrote:

I know some top lads that swear by it, and they get results where ever they go. So is it worth doing? Opinions please.

cant understand why people do this it will cast a shadow whatever colour you paint it

[TF_shallowman]

the underside of a heron is light grey and fish swim near them .

i use grey top kits if im fishing shallow or tight to far bank .Dont think it makes any difference in deeper water though.

[TF_AnthonywatersParticipant]

I do it, you will get a silouhette whatever colour your pole is that’s true but I don’t think it does any harm and if your confident in it then go for it.

[TF_badgerParticipant]

What got me thinking about it, was when I looked up in to the sky its much easier to see a crow than a seagull, and most fish eating birds have white or grey under sides. 😉

[TF_badgerParticipant]

Not cormorants though 🙁

[TF_Gavin]

If you painted it brown / green you could pretend it’s an over hanging tree instead of a heron 😮

A load of rubbish if you ask me – the shadow of a solid object will be the same, and I’d imagine on a bright sunny day looking upwards in to the light (as fish have to) you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference yourself!

[TF_wightangler]

yes they will see the shadow unless a ripple on – but since the shadow is often at a variable angle according to the time of day – they might not so easily see the actual pole given refraction.
I’m pretty sure that fish can see objects quite well – as someone sky-lining is apparent to fish – even when the shadow falls the other way.

Think it’s not a bad idea – though it will add weight to pole at wrong end – but often think white or grey bars or stripes would breakup the solid outline better like on a battleship?

[TF_CriagH66]

Particularly effective when used in conjunction with a potting cup shaped like a F22 Raptor.

[TF_wightangler]

@CriagH66 wrote:

Particularly effective when used in conjunction with a potting cup shaped like a F22 Raptor.

But surely even a camouflage painted F22 Raptor shaped potting kit would remind fish of predatory birds by it’s shape and spook them?

[TF_middi]

All a pole top does is create a shadow ( similar to an “ECLIPSE”) between the light provenance and the water surface of a lake or river.
Well, think of an eclipse such as staring at the moon whilst passing in front of the sun, yes, you get a very dark shadow, Now think about if one could paint the surface of the moon a different colour such as white or black , well the shadow cast on the earh would be exactlythe same colour, ie- black and dark regardless of the painted colour !!!.
A pole top acts in exactly the same way, it will create the same ” spooky” dark shadow regardless of it’s colour. It is not so much this shadow that spooks shallow feeding fish but the permanent ” indiscriminate ” waving of the pole over the shallow feeding fish heads that spooks them. Presentation and ” smooth shipping” accuracy is more important than pole top colour. In very coloured and warm water, and when the fish are ” having it”, a blind man with a scaffold pole and a tow rope would also catch a load of fish and keep him happy. ( Mind you, he would never win a match 🙂
There is another type of pole top shadow that is cast onto the water wich may ” spook” the fish ( and this is what some fisherman are concerned about) , this is the normal light that is refracted from the water surface back under the pole which will in turn reflect back onto the water surface. This kind of ” shadow”, or light refraction, is extremely variable and affected by light density in relation to surface water movement or ripple, which is rarely ever the same during a fishing session or a match.

Middi ( do not confuse with ” Middy” tackle, that has bugger all to do with me)

[TF_One fish]

I may be mistaken but refraction from the water to the light is at an angle. Therefore the fish would not see a still object directly above it? But they would see a moving object near them as in shipping out. Maybe a light colour is less visible, but I would think this is more likely when already in place, like a bird sat in the water.

[TF_HatMan]

I’ve painted mine white & grey, & I know it’ll make naff all difference to the poles shadow.

What this thread makes me wonder is where all this sunny weather is that others get shadows from whenever they fish? It seems to me that most of the time there’s no shadow, & if you look up at a black topkit next to a grey or white one with a cloudy background you’ll see why some people bother.

One Fish – Refraction bends light as it travels from air to water at an angle (it bends it to an angle nearer vertical), but if viewing from directly below it doesn’t refract and only refracts slightly if almost vertical. If you consider what a picture taken through a fish eye lens looks like, that is a lens emulating air into water refraction. I got me physics O level I did (for the benefit of young uns, that’s the old name for a physics degree 😀 ).

[TF_boss baitParticipant]

@HatMan wrote:

I’ve painted mine white & grey, & I know it’ll make naff all difference to the poles shadow.

What this thread makes me wonder is where all this sunny weather is that others get shadows from whenever they fish? It seems to me that most of the time there’s no shadow, & if you look up at a black topkit next to a grey or white one with a cloudy background you’ll see why some people bother.

One Fish – Refraction bends light as it travels from air to water at an angle (it bends it to an angle nearer vertical), but if viewing from directly below it doesn’t refract and only refracts slightly if almost vertical. If you consider what a picture taken through a fish eye lens looks like, that is a lens emulating air into water refraction. I got me physics O level I did (for the benefit of young uns, that’s the old name for a physics degree 😀 ).

but you dont need sun to create a shadow just light must have got that o level when they were easy

[TF_One fish]

Refractive index 1.33, no signs of light here yet lol !. Paint your topkits all you like, if it works for you great. I prefer my lucky pants !

[TF_HatMan]

@boss bait wrote:

but you dont need sun to create a shadow just light must have got that o level when they were easy

Cloudy tomorrow, you could take a picture of your shadow & post it on here to prove your point. Wot no shadow :confused: :p

[TF_middi]

The thing is chaps that fishing with a positive instead of a negative attitude is a very good start towards ejoying the sport. The chaps that prefer to fish with different coloured tops are fishing with their thinking cap on. (I still have a couple of ” broken” maver G 47 painted tops somewhere in the garage).
Let’s face it, for the very serious ones amongst us attention to every tiny detail matters in order to obtain that winning edge . For the rest of us it is good fun and enjoyment between winning the odd match and taking the p*$$ out of someone else if you don’t.
We all know that sitting on the latest box or holding the latest ( multicoloured 😉 pole does not win you matches. It has all to do with the kind of fisherman that is doing the sitting and the holding.

Middi

[TF_WAGGLERWAYNE]

I found that painting my top kits brown and gluing a few leafs to it worked a treat ! 😀 No honestly dont think it matters , but if it gives you confidence then why not !!

[Anonymous]

Middi, your sort of right with your last post. Fishing with a positive instead of a negative attitude is a very good start. Having a positive attitude to your fishing is very important but having the right skills and not worrying about things like the color of your top kits is much more important.

The chaps that prefer to fish with different coloured tops are fishing with their thinking cap on. I think not! More important is being very good at what your doing. Get the feeding right and you can hit the carp on their heads with your pole and they will carry on feeding as if nothing has happened!

For the very serious ones amongst us. Attention to every tiny detail matters in order to obtain that winning edge. That winning edge for the very best anglers in the country is not about having their top kits painted, Middi. If your statement was true. The top winning anglers in the country would all be using painted top kits all the time. Painting a top kit only takes a few minutes at home. However, most of these top anglers dont! Reason being. They dont believe painting a top kit has any psitive effect on the way fish respond. Those top anglers for the most part keep things very simple. They make the right choices on the bank and make very few mistakes once they start to catch fish.

Totally agree with your last statement, Middi. We all know that sitting on the latest box or holding the latest ( multicoloured 😉 pole does not win you matches. It has all to do with the kind of fisherman that is doing the sitting and the holding.

The best of us could win plenty of matches using most match anglers tackle given a potential winning peg. Its not so much the tackle but how its used! However, thats not to say that having the best tackle/bait and attention to detail at home does not help in winning more matches!

[TF_HatMan]

I saw a picture of a black top & a white or grey top taken from underwater on another forum & the difference was clear. This stuff about getting feeding right etc. isn’t actually relevant to the topic, is it?

[Anonymous]

Correct feeding is very relevent, Hatman. Correct feeding means that the carp are confident and will not care about a pole over there heads of any color. If the carp are drifting off when your fishing shallow. Its not because the pole is over there heads and they can see it. They are drifting off because your feeding is wrong or those fish are not confident. They would drift off no matter what color the top kit is. Its as simple as that or all of us would be using painted top kits for fishing shallow and/or margin fishing. Facts are that we are not. Very few of the top anglers do. Why is that? If painted top kits was relevent to catching more fish. All the tackle companies would sell us painted top kits and charge us several hundred pounds extra just for that service!

[TF_speedy_steve7]

Hatman I have the same Physics degree I mean o level as yourself pmsl

I am guessing that technically a shadow of sorts is probably still cast but the balanced light of a grey day means it is a lot less if at all noticeable to the human eye at least. Like you say it is going to be a grey day tomorrow I will make a point of looking out. One thing I can say is that if you set up a light meter in a room, step well back and wave your hands about, you personally wont notice a change in light but the meter is very sensitive. My assumption was that shadows were being cast from all angles???????
I am certainly struggling to get my head round this one.

Surely somebody has a fish pond that they can wave a black and a grey stick over?

[TF_baitchefParticipant]

I’m by far not the best angler in the world but one thing i know for sure is that its best to worry about whats going on underneath the water and not whats going on above it.
If your that good then paint your top kits whatever colour you like.

[TF_speedy_steve7]

I don’t care who you are, what your doing under the water, what your feeding or how often, if you come and fish our local snake lake you will struggle to get a bite with a couple of people stood talking to you. You also have to be particularly ordinary not to win off an end peg regardless of where it falls, a feat I might add that I have achieved.

[TF_HatMan]

I think you’re being a bit black & white in a shades of grey world trueblue. There are many minor factors that can make the difference between a win and a close but no cigar & I’m saying that having a pole that’s less visible will make a small difference on some days (admittedly no difference at all if the sun is out and casting a shadow of the pole over the fish).

You say that correct feeding is most important, well that’s not exactly news is it? I’m saying its not relevant because having grey or white top kits doesn’t make you feed correctly, or incorrectly. Just because feeding is most important, do good anglers use a random float, random shotting pattern, not care about the right hook size etc, etc, etc? Of course not, the topic is a question as to if grey/white (or striped!) top kits are a beneficial small change worth making. Obviously not when your pegs solid with pre-occupied feeding carp (how often is that?).

[TF_mart4666]

Every time you fish cedar at sessay chris to yr last statement.only been goin a few weeks mate but the phrase “youve been Hatman’d” seems to be a very common one. Lol

[Anonymous]

What im suggsting is that it makes no difference what color you paint your top kits. The fish will see your top kit if they are looking for it. If they see the pole as a threat. Then, they will back off from the pole and refuse to feed. Much better option is to fish with a long line and keep the pole as low to the water as possible at the side and away from where your fishing. This at least reduces the angle of sight for the fish to a lower level.

If you wanted to reduce the chances of the fish seeing a top kit. I would suggest a top kit that is see though. Not sure if this is possible. But even if a clear top kit was made available for anglers. Im still of the belief that the fish would still be able to see the top kit but at a very much reduced level. However, the fish would still be able to see a clear top kit to some extent because there would still be a reduction in light levels in a similar way to how we see fish though glass in a fish tank.

What fish can see above the water is all about angles and light levels. Stick anything solid above the fish and they will see it as it blocks out light! It has nothing to do with color because a painted top kit is solid. Anything above a fishes head will reduces light in the same way even if it is grey, white, black green, red or any other color or combo of colors you can think of. The reason being because it reduces light. What the fish will see is the dark shape that stand out from the higher light levels of the sky!

Furthermore, fish see color in a very different way to humans. For a very long time we as anglers thought that wearing dark or camo color clothing to fit in with the background was the best way to reduce the chances of being seen by the fish. Today, we all wear bright colored clothng. I catch more than most by fishing in the margins. On many occations this is much closer than other anglers are able to catch. My angling clothing is red!!!!!! This at least does suggest that color has nothing to do with what fish can see when looking up and out of the water.

[TF_badgerParticipant]

See through top kits, what a fantastic idea, but would it be better with black or grey Hydro or better still transparent solid? 😉

[TF_paulnewell]

I don’t bother and I’ve snared a few shallow but i like the debate , So here’s a few things to ponder ,when you tackle up they know you’ve arrived it ain’t a secret. Then we all chuck bait in at the same time so they know the script . Now we try to make them feed
Now I think this sums it up with humour. I. Was on a Stourport open many moons ago and i fancied i knew a thing or two .Kevin says I I’ve got my new Gortex clothing coming its all in green to blend in with the trees .Thees talking a load of bollocs Newelly he said as soon as every one throes a maggot in they know what you’re up to but you’ve got 5 hrs to convince them to have the ones with the hook in them ,,!! Ashursts bluntness was brutal. I was hurt but i later knew he was right . Then he said you an wear red or white if you like it makes no difference. Like Yan Porter or Bob Nudd yeah !

[TF_wightangler]

Now that Ashurst bluntness really does make sense, sums it up – and makes you think about what you’re really trying to do!
cheers for that Paul.

[TF_speedy_steve7]

Cracking story Paul who’d argue with big Kev. A Shimano rep once told me how he was sitting with Kev and pointed out that he felt his float was sticking too far out of the water, so he bit the top off ( he certainly gets in my top 10).

I am not arguing against stealth or camouflage because I am sure there is merit to it and the shadow casting thing is imo not relevant. The problem is you are trying to camouflage an object which is moving around a lot only feet away from the enemy against an essentially bright flat and variable backround not to mention as Paul so eloquently put they already know we are there and have read the script on a number of occassions. In short I think there is merit in the debate but I certainly cant see it being anything like the the Holy Grail and impossible to prove. If I was young and keen I would probably do it and if your not sure, as some have said previously other than making your topkits a bit heavier and harder to sell it won’t do any harm (but as always be prepared for piss takers me in particular). If you do decide to go down this road look up camouflage on Wikipedia particularly how the RAF paint their undercarriages, it is certainly interesting and relevant reading.
One thing I will say is that I have often read about the anallergy between the underside of a herons belly and considered it to be a fair point. I have just seen pictures of BLACK herons feeding in exactly the same manner so it would appear this is a” red herring”. The herons biggest weapon seems to be stealth and they are also known to PREBAIT an area. Oh and just before they strike apparently they move their head from side to side in order to account for water refraction.

Ive also found that if you mix 1 part dog s!!!t to 1 part leam and 2 crumb it still f!!!!!g stinks Chris, but I do feed my dogs tripe and that’s bad enough before it goes in. Ive got a couple of sacks if anyones interested £5 a throw. I don’t mind sticking a few maggots in my mouth but you’ve got to draw the line somewhere. (Guaranteed empty peg either side though mmm)

[TF_Fred Davis]

how close to the water do we have to get to avoid a shadow lol one of the most effective fish catching methods is the floating pole so much so that it’s banned on a lot of fisheries because other methods can’t compete with it, as Chris says whatever gives you confidence, however if you want to re-sell your prised possession keep your top kits pristine and don’t cut the no 2’s back lol

[TF_Paddy]

Hiya Chris, I have just dropped you a pm mate, could you have a look please?

[TF_Kagger TNB]

🙂

[TF_geepsterParticipant]

Let’s move on please….

[TF_HatMan]

If clear topkits were available, I’d use them. Carbon can be made into a clear form that’s very strong, but apparently its a bit too expensive. I agree Trueblue, best way for the pole not to be seen is to not have it over the fish, but the downsides of float control & connecting with bites asap usually stops me doing that, unless I’m trying to pick off cruisers.

Looking forward to Hatmanning you again with my white grey topkits lads! 😀

I’m going to have a trawl through the other forum & see if i can find the comparison picture i mentioned earlier. That pic & Dennis White are what convinced me.

[Author]

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