Its plenty to live off, Its another load of bollocks they speak, its like avearge salaries in UK are £ 34,000 and the average house price is £240,000 who calcultes these figures, some mornon sat at a desk trying to make the majority of the population feel inadequate, I for One must be below average, I know alot of people and neither figure is applicable to them either.Getting back to the House of Lords lets see them overturn the law on foxhunting that Her Majesty is bending Camerons ear hole about, it wont be long……………….

I know your point, there a waste of money Several hundred people slouching about doing nothing, a hundred of them are still hereditary peers, the mind boggles in this climate you may aswell cut out the middle man every other industry and sector already has ! sack them all and put their ( 800 x 26k )+ their benfits lets say 30 million quid into health service.

Sorry that not many can see the big picture. What most need is an education not hand outs. I think by cutting handouts the hope is some will get out of bed and try to change their lives for the better.
I believe you could double the money you give them and their lives will not change. Frankly its not fair on many working to support benefits through tax,who earn nothing like the sort of benefits paid out to many.
Politically its put Labour in a bit of a pickle as they seem to not know which way to jump.
I feel really sorry for those stuck on benefits but there is only themselves that can change that.

I know what your saying John you can give someone an education, but its doesnt create opportunities,lots of well educated people have no available opportunities, I agree I think a large proportion of my tax is mispent funding failing projects and free loaders, House of lords is mispent money they dont actually do anything productive.

Herbie, they supposed to act as a filter to scrutinise the stuff coming from the commons.
They live in another world to everybody else.

A couple of scenarios though:

I’m off to work now, 45hrs a week, to earn about £22,000 a year. Got to get up early, get the bus, as I can’t afford a car. Haven’t got any kids as too costly. Missus struggles to get to work at the supermarket. She earns too much for any benifits to help her with her disability.

Still its great that a large amount of MY money is going to the family across the road who have a nice new car and other goodies. They have all day to watch their tele as none of them work.6 kids……………………….you all know the score.

What is the best one then.

Education as you say is the answer but not the one taught today.

I love my country and wouldnt want to live anywhere else , but the country is a complete joke at the moment , the Govenment, UK Border Agency hasnt a clue whos comming into the country at the minute , I prey nothing happens but wait until the Olympics later this year , the country is a massive target for terrorists. My lad has a good education , hes applied for over 200 jobs , he will do anything , can he get a job , NO, one of the main problems being their must be thousands upon thousands of Europeans doing agency work in the country , dont talk about the skills that they bring as most are low skilled jobs . Comeon the UK give my lad a job.

herbie, I am going to try and answer your questions, but have sympathy for what you are getting at (I think the questions are primarily intended to be rhetorical).

1) People who cannot manage on £26k pa are – generally – people living in large, expensive council houses, mainly in London.

I am not an expert on this, but I believe that this is primarily due to Labour legislation introduced with the goal of eliminating child poverty (a nobel aim, but the policy response to which has had perverse affects). The rules for council housing limit bedroom sharing for children, so parents with large and growing broods have to be housed in exceptionally large houses. These are expensive, so the government has to pay greater housing benefit to finance the large houses. Throw in the fact that a staggering number of these families live in some of London’s most expensive boroughs and – voila – you have a problem.

The issue is that, unlike in the private sector (where, for example, I choose not to live in Westminster because it is very expensive), in the public sector, the government has to keep picking up the tab because to re-locate such families to a more affordable area is a breach of their human rights. I assure you, £26k does not go very far if you need to rent a large family home in an expensive London borough.

2) The primary role of the House of Lords is to act as an independent hand brake on government legislation. Lords reform has most recently been blocked, somewhat unsurprisingly, by the Lords themselves.

3) The most recent data that I could find on the cost of the House of Lords (2007/8) gives a cost of £121.5m pa, although 43% of that is a non-cash cost (ie, depreciation and other accounting charges), so the actual cash cost is c.£70m pa.

At least with benefits scroungers back in the press firing line, it takes some opprobrium away from bankers’ bonuses.

The £26k benefit figure is the logical outcome of labour’s welfare culture which encouraged the buy-to-let landlord craze to flourish.

The only answer is to drastically cut handouts to economic migrants and totally abolish child-benefit.

The house of lords is a constitutional balancing chamber to the commoners and worked better when it only contained hereditary peers, for which it was originally created.

@herbie wrote:

A. how can you not manage on 26k p/a. (500 quid a week)

B. what purpose does the house of lords serve.

c. what does it cost us p/a.

for the life in me i cannot answer any of the three above questions 😎

A: I would love to know why people think that those on benefits get £26k a year. Not many of those on benefits get anywhere near that amount. I am disabled due to a M.S. and even though my wife works part time for minimum wage basically, and I get higher rate Incap (soon to be changed to ESA or whatever they are calling it now!) and lower rate DLA, our household income including tax credits & child benefit for her daughter and the other benefits that we get total under £20k a year (I added that up this afternoon). The only ones that get anywhere near that are those that have more than 4 children and live in privately rented properties with silly high rents (even though Local Housing Allowances should only pay up to a certain amount regardless of how much the rent actually is). I would love to be able to get £26k a year!!!!!!!

B: Absolutely nothing lol

C: Less than it does to house and relocate immigrants both from and out of the EU.

:rolleyes: I thought this issue would rear it’s head with the usual suspects weighing in. Some new ones too.

Apparently, the TOTAL saving from this EVIL that many self righteously attack is a drop in the ocean in terms of reducing out deficit etc which makes messrs Gary and Rob look a bit silly does it not especially given their continued silence re the greatest criminal low life scum in our society today, a group over flowing with money because they use every possible means to cheat the country out of what they should rightly pay back in taxes, overseas banking and/or the misery they through their greed heaped on society with their disasturous decisions in the so called name of responsible functions such as banking / financing. The money that this group of thieving scum bags owes and should be paying back to this country swamps and dwarfs the miniscule amount that a group of easy targets receive whilst providing an easy diversion for politicians to placate and rabble rouse the gullible members of society. Truly reflects the quality of our politicians / society today does it not.

John, if only life was that simple; Britain like umpteen countries severely affected by the unadultered greed of our ‘noble’ classes of thieving scumbags could not get a job if they wanted one.

Allan, you have absolutely completely and utterly missed the point. The benefit cap is not about saving money; it is about creating incentives to work. Let me know if you need me to explain how this works. I thought it was obvious, but perhaps not.

With regard to your second point, are you seriously contending that anyone who works for a bank or financial institution is a “criminal low life” and a “thieving scum bag”? If so, I hope you have got a very good lawyer!

“Let me know if you need me to explain how this works. I thought it was obvious, but perhaps not.”

He’s one of the public-sector hangers-on Gary – good luck with that.

@caster rob wrote:

“Let me know if you need me to explain how this works. I thought it was obvious, but perhaps not.”

He’s one of the public-sector hangers-on Gary – good luck with that.

🙂 Yes I do profess to work in the public sector. I am indeed so public spirited that the hours I work FREELY exceed the hours that I am paid for and I also pay a four figure sum out of my reasonable salary. A salary that has depreciated in value significantly in recent years. Show me a private sector employer or anybody who works a working week, an extra FREE working week on top and gives a % of his / her salary and then start condemning the private sector why don’t you.

I am not alone BTW in the public sector. Oddly, the private sector may be where people have less vocation / dedication who knows. I have worked in the private sector too BTW. The public sector that was responsible for creating your life opportunities / providing you with umpteen positive lifestyle facets. The public / private sector divide never exists and only the gullible swallow the guff politicians of ALL parties feed them.

However, neither of you has explained why you readily attack a very small group in society whereby the savings accrued are minimal in comparison YET you both steadfastly refuse to criticise the real criminal scum that have left country after country in an awful mess. Therein lies the real tragedy. A tragedy that sees the poor employed / unemployed suffering paying above and beyond for the acts of a minority who escape scot free and are the true criminals of this country. The people who have cost far more money and created far more mess than the odd scrounger and no Gary, I understand perfectly. Many, many unemployed, young people would dearly love to work. The % of the unemployed who do not is a small percentage.

Allan, pease re-read my previous post and let me know when you are ready to address these valid points rather than writing three paragraphs of largely irrelevant drivel. Thanks

herbie, that is scandalous. If that were me I would go straight to my local tax office and speak to an advisor. Failing that, a brief and clear letter to HMRC with copies of the relevant documents enclosed should be able to get everything sorted for 50p. Ultimately there will be a re-balancing at the end of the year and people are entitled to their full personal allowance. As such, the worst case outcome is a timing difference in getting your money back from the tax man.

Most government and company phone lines are completely useless at problem solving as they have no idea what to do or say once the question goes ‘off-script’. A letter goes a long way.

herbie, your example is a perfect one for my point around incentives to work that Allan_Marsden doesn’t seem to get. The very fact that we have a system whereby a £30 reduction in take home pay gives rise to a £50 increase in benefits indicates to me that the system is flawed. The coalition’s bid (inspired by Clegg’s lot) to take low earners out of tax altogether is a fantastic policy in my opinion and one that should go a long way to righting these kind of oddities.

Wouldn’t it be great if, instead of people earning under a certain amount getting benefits to top up their earnings, they just paid less (or no) tax in the first place? That way they are incentivised to work and earn money (on the basis that they keep all of it) rather than disincentivised to work – as is the case under the current system – where every extra £1 earned from work is taken away in benefits. Frankly, I would support a £20k personal allowance if it was funded from a reduction of ‘in-work’ benefits.

Next step then is to move towards wealth taxes (rather than income taxes) and we might actually start to get to a tax and benefit system that rewards work, redistributes wealth and protects the most vulnerable in society.

Thankyou for your amusing interlude Gary. Trust me I understand perfectly and am a tad less wet behind the ears than yourself and do not have any political party leaning (All major political parties are corrupt) something that routinely yourself and Rob allow to get in the way and produce misguided viewpoints.

Employment? Jobs that provide a reasonable standard of living (remember we are supposedly a developed country) simply do not exist in sufficient numbers. The majority of unemployed people would dearly love employment. Yes, a small % of unemployed people have no intention of working. Probably, the same % or less than those who are equally too lazy to work but are oddly not lambasted by the likes of yourself despite inheriting wealth / gaining a lifestyle through past corruption. So, for anybody to conveniently and ludicrously OTT attack / bully the bottom of society says an awful lot about those attacking these miscreants whilst ignoring similar well spoken criminals and/or the financial sector/politicians. I can look at myself in the mirror each day and know I belong to a decent and honourable profession. Can you Gary!! 😉

Crazily, whilst we debate this pointless distraction built up out of all proportion by corrupt politicians, the economy continues to suffer and we move towards another possible recession. Still, I daresay Gary and Rob will adopt their let them eat cake stance and boldly proclaimed that the good jobs are just out their waiting to be snapped up whilst ignoring the scum that created this greed driven mess in the first place across nations / across continents.

“I can look at myself in the mirror each day and know I belong to a decent and honourable profession.”

You mean that in order to have a shave you go to Blackpool’s Fun House?

“but are oddly not lambasted by the likes of yourself despite inheriting wealth / gaining a lifestyle through past corruption.”

How about present corruption?:

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/campaign/2012/01/misleading-tuc-report-union-facility-time.html?tw_p=twt

@Allan_Marsden wrote:

Thankyou for your amusing interlude Gary. Trust me I understand perfectly and am a tad less wet behind the ears than yourself and do not have any political party leaning (All major political parties are corrupt) something that routinely yourself and Rob allow to get in the way and produce misguided viewpoints.

For someone who has no political party leaning you sound an awful lot like a Labour supporter Allan Marsden aka NW Cut Angler or at least you was when you used your pseudonym.

@JohnC wrote:

@Allan_Marsden wrote:

Thankyou for your amusing interlude Gary. Trust me I understand perfectly and am a tad less wet behind the ears than yourself and do not have any political party leaning (All major political parties are corrupt) something that routinely yourself and Rob allow to get in the way and produce misguided viewpoints.

For someone who has no political party leaning you sound an awful lot like a Labour supporter Allan Marsden aka NW Cut Angler or at least you was when you used your pseudonym.

I think you will find John I never supported any of the major political parties. I am an Orwellian socialist so no party gets my support. Hard to tell the difference between the 3 now is it not.

No choice re my login BTW site update made it seemingly nigh impossible to use.

One has to smile when one by one the 3 stooges talk about everybody needing to suffer and make sacrifices for something 99% of us never created YET once again somebody belonging to the scum that helped create this mess is truly making sacrifices and suffering :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16751691

Still Gary, Rob et al will blame the ills of this world on a few scrotes at the margins of society and a single political party. Personally, I think we and many other nations have been royally screwed by politicians and bankers. Do not see many of them showing remorse / guilt and wanting to end it all 🙁 Mind you why should they when gullible members of Joe Public swallow the easy free offerings served as distractions.

Allan, yes, I do belong to an honourable profession. I make no apology to the halfwits that do not understand corporate finance or that brandish anyone who works in financial services as a thieving scumbag. I am happy to try and explain it, though, if it is of interest? I suspect not as you would hate to understand the facts as it would make you realise how wrong you are!

If I was unemployed and finding a job would not leave me much (if at all) better off than claiming benefits, I would put less effort in to finding a job than if employment would make me much better off. This is not a crazy right-wing economic theory; it is human nature.

I firmly believe that work should pay for those who do it, and enterprise should pay for those who create jobs. The burden of job creation sits with the private sector, not the government. That is firmly my personal opinion. If you want to map that to a polictical party, go ahead, but to imply that I follow like a sheep whatever any politician of any party says is a serious insult to my intelligence.

I think the whole notion that we have been somehow screwed is at best an oversimplification and at worst a miscomprehension. Government spending is still way, way too high. Yes, we are worse off now than we would have been if the economy had carried on like it was 2006/7, but the fact is, it was an unsustainable bubble that burst. The Irish take a refreshingly sanguine view of their circumstances: they always knew that it was too good to be true and, sure enough, that is exactly what played out. Meanwhile, people like you think that your house went up in value by 20-25% pa in the early part of the last decade and that there is no quid pro quo.

@Allan_Marsden wrote:

One has to smile when one by one the 3 stooges talk about everybody needing to suffer and make sacrifices for something 99% of us never created YET once again somebody belonging to the scum that helped create this mess is truly making sacrifices and suffering :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16751691

Still Gary, Rob et al will blame the ills of this world on a few scrotes at the margins of society and a single political party. Personally, I think we and many other nations have been royally screwed by politicians and bankers. Do not see many of them showing remorse / guilt and wanting to end it all 🙁 Mind you why should they when gullible members of Joe Public swallow the easy free offerings served as distractions.

Stephen Hester was actually Chief Executive of British Land during the peak of the banking boom, ie, not a banker. So has your definition of thieving scum now been broadened to include the whole of the property industry? Or perhaps any corporate executive? Or maybe anyone whose name begins with an S?

Everyone should take solace from the fact that about 70% of Hester’s bonus will end up in HMRC’s coffers anyway. On that basis, you could argue that it is one way of expropriating RBS’s funds for taxpayers’ benefit at the expense of other shareholders.

Wasting your time Gary.

Economic numpties think the money grows on trees waiting for them to give it a shake as required.

a couple of years ago a good deal of the politition’s were claiming false expenses!

we’re all doooomed!

@Gary wrote:

Allan, yes, I do belong to an honourable profession. I make no apology to the halfwits that do not understand corporate finance or that brandish anyone who works in financial services as a thieving scumbag. I am happy to try and explain it, though, if it is of interest? I suspect not as you would hate to understand the facts as it would make you realise how wrong you are!

If I was unemployed and finding a job would not leave me much (if at all) better off than claiming benefits, I would put less effort in to finding a job than if employment would make me much better off. This is not a crazy right-wing economic theory; it is human nature.

I firmly believe that work should pay for those who do it, and enterprise should pay for those who create jobs. The burden of job creation sits with the private sector, not the government. That is firmly my personal opinion. If you want to map that to a polictical party, go ahead, but to imply that I follow like a sheep whatever any politician of any party says is a serious insult to my intelligence.

I think the whole notion that we have been somehow screwed is at best an oversimplification and at worst a miscomprehension. Government spending is still way, way too high. Yes, we are worse off now than we would have been if the economy had carried on like it was 2006/7, but the fact is, it was an unsustainable bubble that burst. The Irish take a refreshingly sanguine view of their circumstances: they always knew that it was too good to be true and, sure enough, that is exactly what played out. Meanwhile, people like you think that your house went up in value by 20-25% pa in the early part of the last decade and that there is no quid pro quo.

😮 Gary to describe banking as an honourable profession beggars belief. Across nations, bankers are viewed with contempt and rightly so. Nor is it acceptable to plead innocence because the last time I looked virtually every bank has a corporate division. Seem I like many others understand banking perfectly well, a sector that owes Joe Public big time after the last government overspent something you are oddly against despite the fact that had the then government taken your stance, virtually every bank including those that gained benefit indirectly from the banking bail out / economic stimulus packages. Personally, I think the financial sector should be paying back big time for the next 100 years. Honour and banking is an oxymoron. Crooked and greedy are far more apt descriptions.

Do you or Rob actually think the majority of people do not want jobs? Lest you forget many of these unfortunate souls paid their due when employed. Are you saying they are not entitled to some help in times of need? Personally, I think there but for the grace of God go I which is in stark contrast to the contempt both you and Rob routinely show to such people. There is no burden of job creation or a divide between private and public. We live in a society whereby the key facets IMO should be that everybody wherever physically possible is accountable and contributes to a fair and just world whereby people employed by employers who whether or not they are public or private is irrelevant. Indeed, you demarcation is crazy given that when the banking sector screwed up everybody (the public) had to bail them out. Where was your much vaunted private sector then. Is RBS private or public sector? :rolleyes:

Therein lies the irony with the banking sector, we the people bailed it out and in return they do what? Stick 2 fingers at the very public that bailed them out. The banking sector is scum because when it needed help, we were there, when we need help suck it suckers. Honourable 😮

Human nature. Try security / confidence / the notion that you could leave one job and get another as in the late 50’s / early 60’s. Sadly since then greed and self interest, short term thinking has soon boom bust. Boom based on wating precious resources, a society living desparately on the inheritance from the deaths of parents, grandparents and extended family. I actually believe in a better world, Germany has for example shown how that home ownership is not needed, albeit in every man / woman for him/herself Britain, the rental market is exploit, expoit, exploit.

I remember the argument put forward by you Gary and by Rob and by other, oh we have to pay big salaries to retain the great and good. Yet, as you correctly state Gary, Mr RBS who we are told does a good job was a property developer and not a banker. Clearly banking can be done by virtually anybody, they certainly could not do any worse. You both attack the scrotes who never work at one margin BUT fall silent about the scrotes with all the advantages whose wealth was obtained quite frequently by criminal acts of the past yet do bugger all day after day. I take it you both have one rule for the poor and another for the rich.

We live in a country screwed by greed and self interest and worse some members of Joe Public embrace it defend it.

“Clearly banking can be done by virtually anybody, they certainly could not do any worse. “

I knew there were similarities with teaching……………………………

Allan, I’ll train you to become a teacher.

Even if it takes me all day:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7990246.stm

LMFBO

Is that the best you can do Rob :rolleyes:

Teaching has always been accessible as a career for mature entrants WITH training / qualifications. BTW whilst military style teaching may be a good media spin story let’s just say if only it was that simple.

On a personal level I think the notion that teaching is a career for somebody 60+ up to 68 is a recipe for disaster. If a teacher wants to work until that age god bless them!! I wish I had the energy of a 20 something with the know how of a 40+ something. Odd that the government has not attacked the police on this front (not that they should IMO but consistency?

Similarly, whilst BSF may create long term benefits, bricks/mortar are not the be all and end all of education. More teachers / smaller class sizes / extended school days / weeks and zero tolerance to negative behaviour across society would achieve far more IMO. Incidentally, anybody who is gullible, read a few / many OFSTED reports and you will find 99% say behaviour in school is perfect; yet ask the police, ask doctors/nurses, ask Joe Public and they will tell you a significant number of adolescents (a minority overall) create hell on earth with anti social behaviour / attitudes. So how on earth / why does the Govt (OFSTED) say otherwise other than because to say the truth would not suit a political agenda.

Re examination results? Up and up because teachers / school work their backsides off with a you are not allowed to fail culture which is met by resistance by a significant % The only other reason the examination results go up are when politicians meddle and encourage school to boost their grades by making vocational courses worth GCSE(s) and I mean multiple in some cases.

I work with an ex banker BTW. He says banking was so easy and money constantly wasted. No comparison with teaching! :p

Who do we believe George Soros or Gary/Rob 😀

Financier George Soros told the BBC that the fiscal cuts, which Germany supports, could be very damaging and could even lead to a “lost decade” of no growth in Europe.

“This German insistence on austerity could destroy the European Union,” he said.

“This is reality, this is the harsh reality that we need to face.

“It is not written in stone, the future is not predetermined. We determine the future, so it would be well within the possibilities of the authorities to change it.”
Firewall

Austerity is only one part of the solution, Christine Lagarde stressed.

“It is critical that the eurozone members actually develop a clear, simple, firewall that can operate both to limit the contagion and to provide this sort of act of trust in the eurozone so that the financing needs of that zone can actually be met.”

Plans for a “firewall”, a much-expanded rescue fund made up of funds pledged by eurozone members, will be discussed at what is regarded as a crucial meeting of European leaders in Brussels on Monday.

Shame your wonderful education system doesn’t encourage much of a work ethic:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062504/UK-unemployment-Meet-British-bosses-say-foreign-workers-time.html

Too many of them seem content to sponge off the state.

I wonder where they get that idea?

@caster rob wrote:

Shame your wonderful education system doesn’t encourage much of a work ethic:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2062504/UK-unemployment-Meet-British-bosses-say-foreign-workers-time.html

Too many of them seem content to sponge off the state.

I wonder where they get that idea?

Indeed Rob, politicians? society as a whole?

Politicians will never commit political suicide and instead serve their own self interest by lying and not attacking the truth. Hence, why irrespective of their party our politicians are corrupt. However, why should they not when members of society are gullible enough to swallow their nonsense. Perhaps, we get the country we deserve?

As an intelligent man Rob you do not need me to point to you that migration is a very selective process and migrants are by and large the most intelligent / skilled from wherever they came. Silly article really and only for the gullible. Whether or not there should be a limit / stricter border controls are far more important issues re migration BUT yes migration is good for any country. I am sure you would agree.

Interestingly, you seem to be suggesting British people are lazy Rob. Again as an intelligent man you would realise that the article is weak given some British workers are now amongst the most productive if not the most productive in the world. That would be balanced and accurate which does not suit subjective tabloid media and/or the gullible.

Again, as an intelligent man you would not need me to point out to you Rob that the laziest, biggest waste of opportunity in Britain are the very rich who just like the unfortunate scrotes you despise sit on their backside all day benefitting from a fortune frequently gained illegally and corruptly by their family. The day you attack the gap between rich and poor / inherited corrupt lazy upper class slobs with the same zeal you berate the bottom feeders then you will have achieved balance and be a far better man Rob.

You, the voters elect politicians. To present the truth to that electorate would be to challenge and attack them personally and commit suicide. Self interest is far better served by getting society to act in a greedy and selfish manner and attack others rather than look in the mirror and/or look for the true causes / solutions to creating a better society. Greed and selfishness kills any nation.

Still as an intelligent man Rob, I am only repeating what you or Gary etc already know.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16772525

Somebody has finall woken up in the banking world. Fair play Philip Hampton. Even better he also thinks bankers are overpaid. I daresay Gary and Rob will tell him otherwise 😀

Great news that Philip Hampton has grown a pair unlike our present government that bottles it when using OUR 80% ownership :rolleyes:

P.S If the RBS want to walk to a foreign owned bank across the road, LET them. plenty people able to file their positions and oddly I do not think there would banks clamouring to employ many of them.

“but i despise the tories the most. they alone are responsable for all that is wrong with the education system”

It was the card-carrying trots whose campaign of class warfare (born of jealousy) against Grammar Schools that has been most detrimental to educational standards in this country.

They preferred the institutionalised “bog-standard” comprehensives, where the brightest could be dragged down to the level of the most stupid and have their opportunities restricted (except for their own little darlings of course – private schools for them).

The advent of comprehensive education coincided with the break down in discipline and behaviour, because that is what they fostered.

Grammar Schools have been cited as one of the greatest contributors to social mobility in this country’s history – something the left/liberal elite claim to encourage but of which they are actually fearful because it smashes a hole in their pigeon-holing social-engineering programme.

And just for the record, it was the last labour government that increased testing to unprecedented levels, tying in neatly with the socialist dogma of first measuring, then controlling, so don’t give me any of that really Tories crap.

It said Labour on the ballot paper and Labour was what we got, bankrupted economy, record debt levels, record deficit, the usual stuff.

Rob no offence but you know very little about the education system.

The worst teaching / teachers you will ever see are in Grammar / Private Schools. Indeed, Rob had you known anything about education you would have used private schools as an example of where unualified teachers work. It is the only place they can work but that is because it is very very easy to ‘teach’ in such an environment.

However, Herbie, Rob is correct in that it really is not a particular party that is responsible for education, for most things. Both Labour and Tory governments have made monumental mistakes re education. IMO, the best thing a Tory government ever did was the idea of a National Curriculum, oddly though they are effectively ending the NC now with more than 50% of school being able to do as they please, even ignore the EBac which is a good idea too. BSF was an incredibly noble and worthwhile idea by Labour.

Schools / Colleges reflect society. They are your children. The same children that present problems across society for the Police, NHS etc etc.

Politicians meddling in Education creates more harm than good sadly.

Philosophical question here: should I be bothered about the mainstream media’s hyberbolic, one-sided and often fallacious diatribe? Or the fact that people who don’t know the first thing about financial services hate what the media has charicatured as “bankers”?

I owe a lot to my state education, not least the fact that I have seen both sides of the coin.

@Gary wrote:

Philosophical question here: should I be bothered about the mainstream media’s hyberbolic, one-sided and often fallacious diatribe? Or the fact that people who don’t know the first thing about financial services hate what the media has charicatured as “bankers”?

I owe a lot to my state education, not least the fact that I have seen both sides of the coin.

A great many presumptions on your part either way Gary and unless I am mistaken you seem to be absolving your profession of any blame for a catastrophic global disaster driven by greed. :rolleyes:

Similarly, if you have been in one or two or three state education establishments that does not mean you have seen very much. If we accept your claim that nobody understands the financial sector then you similarly by your own stance / admission know very little about education YET when it suits you are quite happy to cast similar judgements. Do as Gary says not as Gary does 😎

Allan, you are mistaken. I am not absolving the entire financial services industry of any blame for the worst economic climate since the Great Depression. Two key points are:
1) Amongst what you call “bankers”, there are pockets of entire blamelessness. Not least those like myself who work in a fee-based corporate finance environment, as opposed to a mark-to-market / fair value balance sheet environment.
2) There are plenty of other contributory factors to the current economic crisis, key amongst which is the fact that governments were running massive fiscal deficits before the crisis. This meant that many governments could not engage in the required Keynesian fiscal stimulus without their own solvency coming in to question. Fortunately, the electorate understood this, which is why they booted out Brown (and other democracies across Europe also punished incumbents). Also, what about regulators, auditors, ratings agencies, mortgage advisers, anyone who took out a 125% mortgage……?

I did not say that nobody understands the financial sector; however, from what you have written, it is clear that you do not. Contrary to your ridiculous assertion that I was casting judgements about the the education system, I was actually deliberately limited in my comments as, quite frankly, it is not my area of expertise. I do have some views, mostly based on anecdotal evidence or things I have read, but they are at best tangentially relevant to this thread.

This is a tremendous exposition for you banker bashers to get your head around:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/ed-miliband-owes-britain-%c2%a3900m-201201314831/

In case you don’t get it, the point is that RBS shares fell by 3% yesterday following Hester’s decision to reject his bonus (on the basis that government interference will make the bank less profitable). This results in an immediate loss of £900,000,000 for taxpayers. But at least Ed saved us the £900k P&L (ie, non-cash) cost of awarding deferred shares. Real big picture stuff. Nice one, Ed!

@Gary wrote:

Allan, you are mistaken. I am not absolving the entire financial services industry of any blame for the worst economic climate since the Great Depression. Two key points are:
1) Amongst what you call “bankers”, there are pockets of entire blamelessness. Not least those like myself who work in a fee-based corporate finance environment, as opposed to a mark-to-market / fair value balance sheet environment.
2) There are plenty of other contributory factors to the current economic crisis, key amongst which is the fact that governments were running massive fiscal deficits before the crisis. This meant that many governments could not engage in the required Keynesian fiscal stimulus without their own solvency coming in to question. Fortunately, the electorate understood this, which is why they booted out Brown (and other democracies across Europe also punished incumbents). Also, what about regulators, auditors, ratings agencies, mortgage advisers, anyone who took out a 125% mortgage……?

I did not say that nobody understands the financial sector; however, from what you have written, it is clear that you do not. Contrary to your ridiculous assertion that I was casting judgements about the the education system, I was actually deliberately limited in my comments as, quite frankly, it is not my area of expertise. I do have some views, mostly based on anecdotal evidence or things I have read, but they are at best tangentially relevant to this thread.

Good reply Gary until you allow your own political bent to spin out of control.90% + of the electorate do not understand the political world nor do they largely care unless it impacts upon themselves acutely. Irrespective of the paty, every government self destructs and the electorate grow tired of the government of the day. It is a cycle that repeats itself time and time again irrespective of who holds power. It takes the defeated party 2 elections before they are anywhere near ready to regain power. Same old, same old pattern throughout my lifetime.

Politicians of all parties make horrendous mistakes. In their defence, we probably get what we deserve because we can be bought so easily owing to our own ignorance, our own greed and self interest. The current government is pandering to those very traits and doing its upmost to avoid the potentially monumental but worthwhile changes of attacking the widening inequality between rich and poor, the disgusting excess wasted by the very wealthy, making those who benefitted from the stimulus (the whole banking sector!) repay this nation. You can bring up share prices etc but the bottom line is if the government of the day had not pumped billions into society then what we face today would have been mild in comparison to what we could have had to deal with. Greed driven insanity that sees a financial sector believe after benefitting from billions of pounds of ALL OUR MONEY that they can walk away and pretend it never happened. The debt the financial sector owes this nation dwarfs what it thinks it has paid or wants to.

Already, the financial sector has returned to being driven by greed, greed, greed and the government of the day is afraid to make the tough decision. Attacking scrotes at the bottom of society is not tough, it is easy, bullying and vile.

The financial sector will never put right the damage it alongside various governments created until it attacks the culture of greed which dominates its work. We are rapidly running out of resources / assets to compensate or hide such greed.

Simple question Gary, in the financial sector are you and your colleagues more likely to attack Joe Public for ignorance or those that you worked alongside and brought your profession into disrepute. From afar it strikes me the financial sector is in denial and wants to return to the same stupidity and negligence that led to this horrendous carnage.

I would not feel proud of such a profession, yet you are.

“Simple question Gary, in the financial sector are you and your colleagues more likely to attack Joe Public for ignorance or those that you worked alongside and brought your profession into disrepute. From afar it strikes me the financial sector is in denial and wants to return to the same stupidity and negligence that led to this horrendous carnage. “

I think they are two discrete points. Yes, there was a degree of hubris in the financial sector which has contributed to the current economic climate. The public’s ignorance (your word, I would prefer miscomprehension) of the events and circumstances that led us to where we are is indubitable.

Can you give any numbers to support your claim that “The debt the financial sector owes this nation dwarfs what it thinks it has paid or wants to”? Or is this just hyperbole? I am genuinely interested and would love to see this analysis done properly.

I would not be proud to be a teacher (I would consider it a waste of my education and ability), but you are. We are different people; the main difference being that I am not bitter about what you have.

Gary every bank was rescued by a government pumping billions of pounds into the British economy. Minus the stimulus, every banks would have seen a huge % increase in customers becoming bankrupt, unpaid debts rising to the point no bank could have coped. Yet, not one bank wants to pay the people of this country back after we indirectly / directly bailed them out. Just another example of the selfishness that prevails in banking and society.

Teaching is a waste of ones education / ability. You were highly unlikely to be able to become a successful teacher with such an attitude. However, as you say, we are different people. Personally and for most most teachers, teaching is a vocation. The level of dedication and devotion I/other teachers make towards our role is beyond the comprehension of many, including you it seems. How you can think of teaching as a waste of your education / ability beggars belief. I have played a small part in helping 000’s of young people to achieve a standard of education / a standard of living that their parents / they could only dream of as teenagers. No monetary value can put a price on the pride and satisfaction I derive from my profession. My Mrs holds similar pride as a Childrens Nurse.

Bitter? Not at all. I have the life I want by and large. The world I live in makes me angry and yearning for a better one. The human race self harms and self destructs through greed.

Hear, hear Allan!

I am indebted to some wonderful teachers throughout my education from primary to university: The fact that I can remember their names speaks volumes whilst I can sometimes struggle to remember former colleagues!

Strange profession indeed:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2094980/Assistant-headteacher-bullied-undermined-victimised-teachers-school-colleague-collapsed-died.html

Guilty of unacceptable professional conduct, as you were, carry on.

@caster rob wrote:

Strange profession indeed:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2094980/Assistant-headteacher-bullied-undermined-victimised-teachers-school-colleague-collapsed-died.html

Guilty of unacceptable professional conduct, as you were, carry on.

I think you will find she has not been allowed to carry on as Rob but I concur somewhat it is still somewhat baffling and unfortunately more likely to happen much more frequently under the present government.

“Gary every bank was rescued by a government pumping billions of pounds into the British economy. Minus the stimulus, every banks would have seen a huge % increase in customers becoming bankrupt, unpaid debts rising to the point no bank could have coped. Yet, not one bank wants to pay the people of this country back after we indirectly / directly bailed them out.”

Do you honestly believe this only applies to banks? What about the automotive sector benefiting from ‘cash for bangers’; the heating sector benefiting from the ‘boiler scrappage scheme’; the construction sector benefiting from the ‘stamp duty holiday’; retailers benefiting from the temporary VAT cut? I could go on. Also, remember that the financial sector has a key role as a transmission mechanism to the ‘real’ economy. If the banks are hurting, businesses cannot obtain financing and the whole system breaks down.

So you’re happy with your life but not the world in which you live it? That feels like something of an abritrary separation to me, given that life is defined by context.

Gary said, “Do you honestly believe this only applies to banks? What about the automotive sector benefiting from ‘cash for bangers'”

That was a real ‘smoke and mirrors’ campaign by the Government and didn’t benefit the home based manufacturers.

During the Scrappage Scheme I worked in retail for franchisees in Ford, Citroen/Suzuki and Vauxhall and the vast majority of business was cornered by Kia and Hyundai as, until the launch of the Suzuki Alto towards the end of the scheme, none of the other manufacturers had a sufficiently cheap product.

In reality, the £1,000 ‘Scrappage’ would only probably put you about £200 up, at most, against part exchanging and negotiating a best price.

It was also a nightmare to administer due to the form filling, collection by a registered disposal agent (they probably made some money), waiting for payment by the Government (who were also making money).

I also like classic cars and I was gutted at some of the stuff that went off to be dismantled including a Mercedes 500SEC!

There was also an impact on used car prices as suddenly the cheap end of the market disappeared overnight as cars were suddenly seen as worth a grand minimum (forget the fact that you had to own in for a year!).

During this period, in the Governments best endeavours to kick start the motor industry, alongside the Scrappage Scheme came the ‘Showroom Tax’ and increased first registration fee! What was given away with one hand was taken back by the other!

As a result of all this ‘help’ new car registrations are down 4.4% but interestingly there is a still some signs of growth…. Aston Martin, Range Rover, Bentley and Rolls Royce are all having record sales.

So to sum up. The Government got more out of the Scrappage Scheme than the motor industry did, foreign made products got more sales, the average person ended up paying more, in real terms and the only growth was in the cars that the elite are driving!

To be fair, all the above has contributed to a 55% increase in people leasing instead of buying (the business I am in) because it is so much more cost effective to fund your motoring by doing so.

I should be laughing – but I’m not. I’m a Socialist at heart and whilst the average wage has not increased for the working man the disparity between them and the top 5% has widened considerably.

Gary: I can normally see where you are coming from but with regards to the Scrappage Scheme you appear to be clutching at straws.

Are we in recession yet ?

Mark, I could say the same of a lot of the governmental supports for banks. A good example is TARP in the US, where the government has got out far more than it put in to any of the banks. The only reason that TARP is out of the money is because of the bailout of an insurance company, AIG, and an automaker, General Motors. The point I was trying to make is that the government was pumping money into industries left right and centre – how else did they rack up a £180bn deficit when that figure excludes ‘bank bailouts’?

What you have set out is the fact that government intervention is distortionary. As such, surely we can all see that less government the better?

“What you have set out is the fact that government intervention is distortionary. As such, surely we can all see that less government the better?”

Amen to that.

Especially at interfering, busybody, local level.

@Gary wrote:

“Gary every bank was rescued by a government pumping billions of pounds into the British economy. Minus the stimulus, every banks would have seen a huge % increase in customers becoming bankrupt, unpaid debts rising to the point no bank could have coped. Yet, not one bank wants to pay the people of this country back after we indirectly / directly bailed them out.”

Do you honestly believe this only applies to banks? What about the automotive sector benefiting from ‘cash for bangers’; the heating sector benefiting from the ‘boiler scrappage scheme’; the construction sector benefiting from the ‘stamp duty holiday’; retailers benefiting from the temporary VAT cut? I could go on. Also, remember that the financial sector has a key role as a transmission mechanism to the ‘real’ economy. If the banks are hurting, businesses cannot obtain financing and the whole system breaks down.

So you’re happy with your life but not the world in which you live it? That feels like something of an abritrary separation to me, given that life is defined by context.

Gary it works both ways re business / banks. If the businesses / Joe Public go belly up then your banks are screwed. Hence, why the numptys in charge got us in such strife in the first place through their insane greed and stupidity.

Perhaps banks would argue they are now ultra cautious but one of the basic problem is at the present time is that finance / support is now far far harder to obtain. So, the financial sector is happy to virtually close up shop and demand bonuses for doing so.

The financial sector created this mess through their greed. The politicians and the supposed organisation monitoring financial transactions are equally guilty for allowing such stupidit to happen and endorsing it. Again through greed and hoping no doubt to have their palms greased in a back slapping exercise between the ‘retiring’ politicians and financial services.

Of course you can separate your own circumstances from ‘the world’ A large % of people do so quite successfully. I can get frustrated by politicians etc making my job more difficult etc but I teach to enable children to protect themselves in adulthood and that is far more important for me, to ensure the children I teach can understand the real value of education as a means of protection. I am protected but that never prevents me from understanding and feeling the lessons learned from a working class family with a large % once being miners. It made me work harder to ensure I could protect myself and my family as much as possible and enjoy life but I still see the same pain inflicted upon the weakest members of society by repeated bust periods irrespective of party name/colour. I can look at myself in the mirror knowing I have never inflicted pain and misery on people and I have some very special fantastic loving relationships. It is those immediate relationships that make life special. The world around me sucks through greed, self interest and stupidity.

“The financial sector created this mess through their greed. The politicians and the supposed organisation monitoring financial transactions are equally guilty for allowing such stupidit to happen and endorsing it. “

Do you think the clowns who borrowed more than they could afford to repay are in anyway responsible, or was it their inadequate eduction that was to blame?

They seem incapable of protecting themselves in adulthood.

If anything happens to a child / adult that I teach no matter how stupid they are / act I am in loco parentis. If I have not exercised all sensible precautions against such stupidity then I am guilty and for the high jump.

Apparently we are governed by / our financial sector contains some of the finest intellects, most intelligent people / the creme de la creme of the public education system. Yet, these super intelligent people ALLOWED / ACTIVELY ENCOURAGED less intelligent / products of bog standard education to borrow to dangerously high levels to feed their own GREED. Why should gullible less canny member of Joe Public now trust the great and the good of a group that you and Gary hail with alarming regularity.

“Yet, these super intelligent people ALLOWED / ACTIVELY ENCOURAGED less intelligent / products of bog standard education to borrow to dangerously high levels to feed their own GREED.”

Speaking of encouragement, try and read this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002/jun/27/economy.uk

without laughing.

Are you complaing of the greed of the lenders, or borrowers?

Shame they didn’t enjoy a Grammar School education, they’d probably have known better, but that’s bog-standard comprehensives for you.

“Why should gullible less canny member of Joe Public now trust the great and the good of a group that you and Gary hail with alarming regularity.”

I’d never encourage anyone to trust anybody, I certainly don’t, neither would I hail anybody, even my own profession.

Clitheroe Grammar School is an example of a high-class establishment doing what it considered to be in the best interests of maintaining its standards, not symbolic of the Grammar School system.

My family’s working class, I passed the exam and went to Grammar School without any financial criteria being met, as did thosands of others. We all wore identical uniforms, so Richie Rich didn’t get to show-off the latest expensive trainers and the less well-off weren’t made to feel inadequate, unlike today.

I did witness the decline in academic and behavioural standards when the education gestapo running the LEA got their way and turned it into one of their much loved Bog Standard Comprehensives, but luckily I was done with it by then.

But back on topic.

Benefits.

Obviously no scope at all to trim the welfare bill:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2097403/Michael-OShea-euromillions-Rollover-time-benefit-lottery.html

None whatsoever.

He’s buillt a mansion in Ireland but gets benefits and free cars here, just fine and dandy!

These benefits just keep on giving:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9090331/Civil-servants-can-claim-for-laddered-tights.html

I understand that the women can claim too.

Stop it Rob, you naughty boy!

Polly is the truth and the light and you’re just an evil Tory who wants to bayonet bay-bees and the unemployed………….

For Joe Public this country is on its knees , my son has a reasonable education , 3 A levels , 10 GCSE, yet he cant get any job , on the radio today it stated that in my area Stoke – on – Trent 72 people apply for one vacancy , so why are all the Polish and others allowed to work in this country and our own cannot get jobs , and dont give me we are lucky compared to other countries , im only interested in this country , this country is in a mess, and to start a recovery we should hire some big ships and planes and start sending people back to their oown country.

@Katarino wrote:

Stop it Rob, you naughty boy!

Polly is the truth and the light and you’re just an evil Tory who wants to bayonet bay-bees and the unemployed………….

Now you’ve spilt the beans everyone may as well know that I had a couple of medium-rare ones for dinner.

Nevermind, more scope for public savings have emerged:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2104902/Mind-head-Bungling-council-spends-320-00-cycle-path–tunnel-thats-low-ride-under.html

A cycle path that cyclists are instructed to dismount on.

Money well spent as usual!

Don’t worry:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2112821/Council-spent-1MILLION-pavements-forced-spend-thousands-TOO-SLIPPERY.html

It’s your money, not theirs.

Remind us who’s receiving the benefits again:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/council-spending/9139853/Council-officials-use-tax-avoidance-schemes.html

Those public “servants” eh?

The inevitable solution draws ever nearer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-17352006

Useful info questions nicely defined by you peeps.