Commercials; are anglers going to be their own worst enemy??

[Sammydimple]

Hi lads;

As the subject reads; are commercial fishery anglers going to lead to demise of the very places they love to fish??

After reading the article in the angling press a few weeks ago about the fishery condemmed by anglers on forum sites simply for thinning out his stocks slightly for the benefit of the fish it would seem to me that SOME anglers are only interested in how many fish they can cram in their nets.

For a fishery to be able to pruduce 300, 400 and even 500lb weights there has to be thousands of fish in there; far too many for the good of the fish I reckon.

My local fishery, Milemead in Tavistock, Devon, can produce 100lb weights during the summer and 50lb plus in the winter; more sensible targets and the fish are all in good condition. But, especially in the summer, you still need to target the carp to win – though that may change over the next few years as the barbel put on weight

Now, to be clear, I’m definately not having a pop at the owners; they have a living to make and if anglers wont visit a fishery where only 100lb nets are available they have to make 200lb possible – until even that’s not enough because they want 300lb — total greed in my opinion

To be honest, the bordom of catching carp, every cast, every match, every weekend put me off and I’ve not been back to a commercial since April; prefering the variety of beach matches and tournament casting.

So, back to my original question; will the greed of some commercial anglers lead to the eventual demise of commercial fisheries????~naughty

[TF_Cutnut]

I think the greed of commi carp anglers will not be the death of the fisheries but cause the demise of common sense.

There seems to be a constant brainwashing of anglers from the press, the bait suppliers, the tackle dealers, tackle manufacturers adverts, even the fishery owners that the only gratifying result is a ton plus bag for every man jack.

Forums where gossip mongers gather will always be contentious and their views will always be taken out of proportion to the silent majority.

The demise of carp fisheries will be the day when KHV has finally got round to every fishery and the thinning or wiping out begins.

I reckon most fisheries would make a very quick buck if they were to open their gates to catch for the pot the week before Christmas.~naughty

[TF_JohnC]

The said article was about Cudmore fisheries and if you’ve ever been you will know that the owner Cyril has never been bothered about fish welfare and more concerned about MONEY.

He’s also the same person that said Marukyu is it’s prefered bait at his fishery, all for fish welfare of course. People have stopped going to go to better places with better turn outs, like Partridge where there getting 50+ anglers a week, where as Cudmore is getting 25 if there lucky.

The funny thing is i can’t remember there being any discussion on any forum about it.

The demise of commercial fisheries will not be big weights but KHV.

[TF_AnthonywatersParticipant]

Anglers that want to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds will be the death of fishing!

[Sammydimple]

I didn’t know that about Cudmore because the magazine article never mentioned it – odd that~think

I still think that anglers will be their own worst enemy as the average match on a commercial these days seems to have become a race more than a fishing match – not my cup of tea at all really.

It’s a bloody shame really as these fisheries offer almost everything an angler could want; good fishing, a safe, secure environment to fish in, shop, toilets and in some cases even a cafe!!!

And I agree with the poster who mentioned magazines and their mentality of ” follow this advice and bag up!! “; I know they need to offer advice, and sell magazines, but when did the days of catching 50lb for a match win disappear???

No, sorry, a lot of todays commercial match anglers are only interested in hooking a fish and hauling them out in double quick time so they can get their bait in for the next lipless carp!!!

[Sammydimple]

Anthonywaters, you’ve lost me mate~think ~think ~think

[TF_MarkT]

If you don’t like them places then don’t go, simple really!!

If your fishing places where theres lipless carp them more fool you, you vote with your feet. I’ve only ever been to one place where the fish are like that and i’ve never been back.

This article is talking about the minority though not EVERYBODY, this article was about Cudmore as i read it myself.

[TF_GLEBE1]

I dont think commies or their anglers will be the death of fishing, nor KHV and the like.

In a couple of generations time there wont be many people fishing, how many anglers that post on here know or see kids fishing these days, ive got two lads they just aint interested believe me ive tried.

When i was 14 i was entering opens and fishing nationals like alot of other lads my age, i used to go to fishing meetings with 30 or 40 other kids once a fortnight.
Every town had a fishing club with a junior section too.

I think the lack of young uns fishing needs addressing before a few overstocked fisheries!!!

[Sammydimple]

Glebe1 you could well be right. I belong to both a coarse and sea angling club and between the two clubs we have perhaps half a dozen kids; and my ten year old is one of them!!!

Only problem is even he doesn’t bother to go very often; never when it’s cold; and much prefers to sit where I am now; in front of the bloody computer!!!!

His two brothers, now 22 and 17 used to fish with me at every opportunity; staying out all weekend fishing comps and I just assumed he’d be the same but technology has beaten me I’m afraid!!

I imagine it’s the same all over the country.

[TF_dirkdiggler]

i’d imagine if last year is anything to go by it’ll be hard enough for anyone through november to march wherever you go.
maybe you just need a break from commercials remember there are plenty of rock hard natural venues to go at.
i did 25 years fishing for specimen carp now if you fancy a circus performance and catching nowt go and have a go at that for a couple of seasons.
if you want to know where most of the young uns are they’re bivvied up and spliffed up at a specimen carp water near you!

[TF_daveroberts]

I don’t think the anglers are the ones to blame.

The 2 best (IMHO) commercial fisheries in this country are Lindholme and Larford. Both fisheries produce many ton bags through out the year but 200lb bags don’t happen as often. I imagine this is down to forthought and tinkering with stocking levels to get it right.

I have no inclination to visit a fishery where 300lb is needed to frame every week although I’ll take an occasional unexpected double ton if one comes along but I enjoy just as much a hard worked for 12lb of stick float caught roach. Variety is the spice of life but each to their own.

[TF_D.W.]

The main reason why there are not that many young anglers on the match circuit as there used to be is purely down to financial reasons. Most of the matches are held on commercials where the cost of the peg fee is essentially the same as the pools money, even on club matches. Unless the clubs have waters under their own tickets so no peg fee’s are required (as their club ticket already covers them), the cost of the match is essentially doubled before they even think about buying bait as well. Even family’s where both parents work may find this difficult in financial times such as this.

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

Mmm, anything related to Quidsmore and Fish Welfare is an oxymoron.

However, perhaps it is the demise or decline of match angling rather than the fisheries themselves. The majority of youngsters that I teach seem to be far more interested in specimen carp fishing which to them can mean a double figure carp etc rather than matches.

Perhaps the nature of commercial fisheries will change.

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

The funny part of expectations is that very often the anglers that decry ton + commercial catches went to Ireland once upon a time expecting the fish to jump out of the water and produce 300lbs + bags. Double standards?

[Anonymous]

In the case of Cudmore and the thinning out of the match lakes for the good of the stocks. The reason for the thinning out of the bigger carp was for commercial reasons only and not for fish health reasons. It goes much further than removing a few of the bigger carp to improve the health of the fish stocks. The match anglers have been pushed off most of the match waters by club matches where every peg is often used on the booked lakes. Inflated prices pleasure anglers will pay to fish. £20 and £40 on Arena, per 24 hours to catch very little but get stoned or pissed. What the fishery management forget is that the open match anglers where very loyal to the fishery and where there first. 80/100+ open match anglers 52 weekends of the year. The fishery is almost empty from the middle of November until the end of March! Yes, there have been 200lb+ match weights from most of the pools. However, 80lb/120lb was the norm to win 99% of the open matches.

[TF_ubat]

Its great catching fish, even better in a match.
Yet I believe that the main attraction of a commy is quite simply the facilities and convenience.

From my point of view, I no longer wish the hassle of towpath squabbles, give me some room to do my own thing, personal area if you like.

Its nice to get on a river every now and again, but, I had a day on one recently and had 10 oz (12oz & 2oz either side), not keen to rush back……..

One of the big disapointments, has been the relative failure of silverfish pools on commys, anglers can get carried away about catching carp.

There is a lot of choice out there now, for good or bad, commys are here to stay,

[TF_One Out of the Frame]

“Commercial” fisheries are part of the problem with fishing as everyone wants to bag up every visit and, basically, that isn’t fishing! Didn’t Keith Arthur once say that, “Is catching a 1lb roach EVERY chuck fishing Heaven or fishing Hell?”

Society is also going to cause the demise of fishing as instant gratification is what everyone expects these days. Sales of oranges, for instance, are falling as people can’t be bothered with eating something that takes so long to prepare before you can eat it! Staggering but true.

The fishing industry doesn’t want you on a canal with half a liquidized loaf when you could be on a commercial using ‘x’ pellets on a ‘y’ feeder or you won’t catch!

Personally, I’ve enjoyed sea fishing (and I don’t know what I’m doing at that) more than coarse fishing recently. I took less gear and the bait cost less….

My two boys like fishing (7 & 8) and there are a fair few at their school who go too.

Match fishing is doomed as it costs more to enter than you can win, for the most part.

[TF_JohnH]

Sorry but I do not subscribe to the gloom and doom merchants. Commercial fisheries are vital for coarse fishing in my view due entirely to the demise of natural waters. I know some top anglers wont fish them and good luck to them but you cannot ignore them or predict any time soon they will go.
As for costing more to fish than you can win can anyone tell me over the last 30 years one angler who has actually made a living from match fishing pools money?
We fish them for recreation, and fish matches for a bit of a laugh and joke with friends.
Of course we take it seriously and try our best but over a season we are all out of pocket. Remember Macho winning Fisho and Parkdean in one season? He then went full time but even an angler like him could not afford to stick with it.
I say hooray for commercials long may they continue. Our club currently has its biggest crop of youngsters we have had for years so I do not subscribe to the end of fishing either, not by a long way.
I wish the natural venues were better than they are but even here I think we are back on an improving trend.

[TF_One Out of the Frame]

JohnH: I wouldn’t regard myself as a ‘Doom and Gloom Merchant’ but more a realist: When I used to fish canals a couple of pounds was a good weight, five was superb and double figures fantastic!

Looking back with rose coloured spectacles, there were more people fishing in the 70’s and 80’s, turnouts were greater and payouts significantly better than today.

There was much more skill involved, in my opinion, then than now as there weren’t any bolt rigs as such. YOU had to decide when to strike and if you hooked your ‘bonus’ you had to PLAY it rather than bully it.

I don’t really think that the accuracy today is better than before. Thinking about fishing the bomb rather than a feeder then you probably needed even more as you had to catapult the bait in before following up with the hookbait.

Macho’s fishing full time is a non starter as, I said before, most matches you can win and still be out of pocket.

Going back to the 70’s and 80’s there were two distinct circuits: The Opens where you could win significant amounts of money (something that I was trying to restart recently) that were serious, costly and very competitive. Then the Club matches that was all about fishing for recreation, having a bit of a laugh with your mates.

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

The question is more the decline or changing nature of match fishing. Commercials cater for all forms of coarse fishing. I think you may see a return to Carp stocking rather than F1s if match fishing becomes less important.

[TF_teabag]

There do seem quite a few on here who think commies are only here for matches~think

Maybe there are a few about which have stocked their lakes just to cater for matches, but for the places I visit, they would quite easily survive after a little tweaking if match fishing came to an end at them.

[TF_herbie]

a fishery is only as good as its owner. lindholme,barston,the glebe,viaduct,stafford moor, rolfs. all fantastic fisheries that have had there share of problems but in my opinion always put their fish first.these places will always survive because there run correctly and make a profit of sorts. these people should get credit from all of us instead of being bungled into a comercial sack with the money first men. i for one thank them. they have my upmost respect.~clap

[TF_JohnH]

Mark, its the world thats changed. Sunday trading means many people work weekends but can fish mid week. The cost of travelling also means anglers want to fish on their doorstep not £50 of fuel away. The large matches are therefore doomed but not your local commercial 30 pegger.
Anglers fishing for the mega bucks can join in the UK champs but these are a select few and if they are honest it probably costs them money to do it even if they are fortunate to win it.
Lindholme is 30 minutes drive for me and anglers from Barnsley, Sheffield, Doncaster, its also one of the best if not the best commy around. Check out how many times over 50 anglers fish matches there.That said I think its matched up 7 days a week.
More matches but smaller is the way its going.
Bear in mind also the commy owner only gets a pegging fee so if he ups the anti by say charging £50 a match to up the prize money how many anglers would fish I wonder.
I dont think the pools at even W/A has changed in 10 years either, presumably for the same reason.

[Anonymous]

This has become a great thread with loads of side issues.

Firstly, most silver fish venues that i,ve fished in the past 5 years are much better than they where 15 years ago. Many of the rivers have gone full circle with stocks at an all time high. Even the canals are solid with fish. The perception is that catching 10lb of silvers from a river or canal is not a great days fishing after getting use to catching regular massive weights of fish that we could only dream about 15 years ago. Remember, 10lb would have won most matches on many of our top venues 15 years ago. Even 5lb would have been a good net of fish on many venues before we all started fishing on commercials. I can remember winning several 100 peg plus winter league matches and opens with less than 4lb and includes a match win with only 14oz. Those where the days when you expected to have 3 or 4 blanks in an average winter!

Silver fish only pools on commercials for matches have been tried and failed. Most match anglers enjoy catching carp. So, carp are here to stay!

As for making a living out of your match winnings. Yes, there are still a few who do it. You only need to look at the top winners in the Angling Times match results for the mid week matches to see that a few anglers are picking up pools money almost everyday. I was fishing full time and making a basic living from my match winnings 10 years ago. However, without the correct venues close to home and the pools set up so the money is not spread to much. It becomes very difficult. It also becomes a job and is not as great as some think to fish 8 matches a week in summer and 5 times a week in winter. I fell out of love with fishing after 3 years of being a full time angler and hardly wet a line for 2 years.

In the case of Macho. He won the best part of £70,000 in one year from match fishing. He was also a fully sponsored angler. So, no cost for equipment. Before he went full time as a match angler. He would have been lucky to come out with 15 grand after tax from his normal job. So, he had 5 years average take home wages based on his previous job. Even if he had hardly never picked up another penny from match winnings. He did win a bit more! It was his choice to do whatever he wanted with his match winnings and im sure he enjoyed the money. However, he did have the money in the bank if he wanted to stay as a full time angler for a very long time!

There are a few things wrong with open match fishing on commercials and the way opens are set up and run today. We have loads of small open matches instead of a few big opens on the river or canal of years ago at the weekend. Peg fee,s where small and the top winners picked up big pay days. There was also a big difference between open matches and club matches in terms of pools money and what you where likely to win. The real winners are the well run commercial fishery owners. They set the matches up to keep the pools fodder coming back by spreading the pools money. The only thing that has gone up in the past 15 years to fish an open match is the peg fee! Based on what i was paying to fish an open match 25 years ago. I should be paying £40/£50 all in to fish an open match today. Im sure we will always have match fishing but unless things change in the structure of pools money and payouts and what we as anglers expect from the commercial fisheries in the way open matches are run. Open matches are not club matches afterall and so should be run as opens where the top performers take most of the money. There seems to be very little difference at the moment between open matches and club events apart from a few high profile competitions for big money! Maybe paying an annual subscription to a top fishery like the Glebe is the way forward for open match anglers. At least the pools are the pools because the peg fee has already been payed for in advance!

[TF_One Out of the Frame]

Looking back to the 70’s and 80’s and at matches that my Dad used to run for the Standard Triumph at Cropredy on the Oxford Canal they used to take £1 for a peg fee which equates to about £4 today so the peg fees aren’t that different. The entrance fees are much smaller now than then though and Trueblue is spot on with how much we should be paying.

Back then, I had heated discussions with my Dad about pegging as probably only around 10% of the field were capable of winning. He wanted to not peg ‘fliers’ whereas I thought that that stacked the odds more in the favour of the 10% but if the poolsfodder drew a ‘screamer’ they could go home (the equivalent) a grand better off and justify fishing the matches every week!

I fished a Drennan League match at Tunnel Barn and a chap who I knew from the rivers filling in for a team was gutted and very much disappointed to have only caught 40lb! He would have ran to a peg on the Avon to catch that!

Various fisheries have been discussed and personally if you look at a venue like Barston, you have the water and enough fish of different types to give a variety to tactics. When I come away from there I rarely feel that I couldn’t have done something different to improve my results.

Some other fisheries leave you dead before you get to your peg if the wind is wrong or you are on the wrong lake or even bank!

Barston is a credit to Nigel but it is good because it isn’t a one trick pony!

[TF_JohnH]

Good summaries above pretty much sets out where we are and where we are likely to stay for a while at least. TB I like your conclusion ref joining the Glebe so much, I joined in September and the fishing and company are first class.

[Author]

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