Is it cheating??

[TF_Flash]

Ok, typical commercial I fish quite often were carp can be caught in the side very often from the start. Been watching the venue expert trying to pick up a few tips and noticed at the start of a match probably 3-5mins before all in he will stir and cloud up the margins with his hands both sides he is then most often on to the fish probably 20mins before any one else!! not sure if i would call this cheating but intrested in your views guys

[TF_roblfc3412]

If he is he is stirin it up and formin a cloud then YES if movein grass to clear his peg no

[TF_Gavin]

I think to the letter of the law it is cheating. Not sure of the exact wording but I’m sure it amounts to the surface of the water should only be broken to plumb up, get water for groundbait or to clear obstructions.

[TF_FBlues]

Depends what rules you fish to. Raking the swim is not allowed in any rules I’ve fished to. If he’s disturbing the silt that’s what he’s doing. He’s cheating.

[TF_GUS E]

Yes

[TF_thedog]

an article in one of last months mags claimed that washing your hands in silt would remove any smells or oils present on your hands, so as not to pass these onto your hookbait. By doing this wouldnt that be classed as cheating,for whatever reason your doing it the silt is still being stirred???

[TF_AmerParticipant]

Difficult one to call, but what about ice breakers? They certainly stir the bottom up a bit and yes banned on some venues but mostly allowed! The intent to draw fish in by stirring the bottom up in the margin seems a bit unsporting but in match fishing nothing I haven’t seen before.

[TF_rik_j]

If I get this correct, then he’s “washing his hands” on both sides of the peg? – then he is obviously cheating, as he is only doing it to attract the fish…

[TF_Waveney One]

The problem is what constitutes ‘raking’ and what constitutes ‘clearing’ a swim. Indeed, sometimes by doing one you inevitably do the other. Many natural venues require swim clearing to be done. On a commercial where there are no weeds or branches in the water then the only reason to use a rake or get in and use your hands would be to colour the water – cheating imo.

However, I have fished many matches on the Nene, Welland and Witham in the past where cutting weed was necessary before the match, even when fishing Nationals and Fish’o’s. In fact the weed went so far out often enough (it was way past where a landing net could reach) I used to carry a small rake on a rope. Everyone was happy with that and of course others were doing the same thing.

[TF_Gary]

Agree that doing this before the match would be prohibited.

However, if he only does this 3 mins before the start and then catches 20 mins before everyone else, are you allowed to stir up the margins with your hands straight after the all-in and still have a 17 minute advantage over your competition?

[TF_JohnH]

He could be a bit more subtle by throwing his keepnet in and dragging it around a bit. I think under any rules you can put nets in. He could even put a brick in his net to stir it up a bit more and not be breaking any rules I can think of.

[Anonymous]

It’s cheating end of !!!

[TF_Staff Bull]

If he’s that worried about washing his hands he should have a bucket of water next to him. In my eyes he’s cheating, no ifs or buts. No excuse for it, its a p*ss take and far too many anglers are doin little things like this to get an advantage, if you can’t compete fairly then don’t enter the match and try and pull a fast one on your fellow anglers, its not very sporting.

[TF_streamline]

Why bother doing it before the start??, as he only seems to be gaining 3 minutes, might as well let it be for the whistle and do it when he can.

[TF_FBlues]

Waveney One; Raking weed to clear swims is NOT allowed under the NFA/ATr National Rules – to which all official matches, including AT Team Champs/Winter League were fished. It has been allowed in Nationals I’ve fished, on specific request in a specific swim, but ALWAYS and ONLY under scrutiny of a steward.

Model Match Rules were brought in as a guide to match organisers rather than definitive rules, in case someone mentions that there are no pertinent rules in that set regarding raking.

Taking some MUD or CLAY from the bankside, (not silt from the lakebed) to ‘neutralise’ one’s hands is very different from stirring up the bottom.

Surely this ruse is to attract fish from other competitors’ swims/pegs. It isn’t allowed after the start either, according to the official rules!!

[Anonymous]

To answer the question. If this activity is happening on a commercial fishery and the fishery allows it. Then, no. Its not breaking the rules!

Too many anglers are more worried about other anglers gaining an advantage. However, if most of you stopped complaining and attempting to get everything banned. Then more of you might catch more fish and enjoy your day. You might even win a few more matches.

In the case of stiring up the margins before the start of the match. We do it when breakng ice or removing weed from swims that are over grown. Whats the difference between those activities and stiring the margins up with your hands or landing net?

If you believe that stiring up the marin works and gives an advantage. Get off your box and stir your margins up, yourself. Then there is no advantage if every angler can do it! You might even catch a few more fish and have a better day.

[TF_Simon P]

OK on the flip side of it……..

When i fish natural venues such as Porth or Upper Tamar, sat out in the water (up to knee height) the more you walk around the cloudier the water gets

If the bottom gets stired up walking to and from the bank whilst setting things up out on my platform before the match

Am i cheating???

I know its different from stiring up the bottom on a commercial.

[TF_FBlues]

If you’re doing it deliberately to gain an advantage, yes Simon P. Sorry but that’s the facts.

True Blue: the BIG trouble with our sport on many commercial fisheries seems to be people pulling strokes. If it’s not written down that you can’t do it, then you can. Where have the ethics gone? Where is the trust? As I said, you are NOT, under the rules I was brought up to, allowed to remove weed from the water. Daft but fact! You can ask a steward – of which there are none – if you can but how many commercials have weed that needs clearing?

With regard to ice-breaking, if the organiser allows a match to go ahead where ice needs breaking obviously everyone does it; no one is pulling a stroke, no one is looking for an edge that has zip to do with fishing ability over anyone else.

Look up scruples in the dictionary.

[TF_Vince8]

We do things without thinking sometimes. On sunday I applied some sun tan cream then without thinking knelt down and washed my hands in the water. Thinking back this may have messed it up for me.

But the guy in question has, by the sound of it, quite deliberately thrashed about in the water. So I reckon its cheating but there again once upon a time you might have been able to set a box up in the water, if rules allowed, so making a disturbance for ages before the start. Whether it gained an advantage is another matter.

[Anonymous]

You cannot be pulling a stroke if its known about and every angler is allowed to do it.

Yes, angling once had a strict code of ethics with rules that most anglers followed to the letter including myself. However, rules change and with it our ethics!

Without the idea of “If it’s not written down that you can’t do it, then you can”. We would not have many of the practices, methods and tackle that we except as norml and exceptable in todays angling. There are also many methods, baits and practices that have also been banned as being unethical or unexceptable in todays angling but where the norm in the past. Our sport has changed and will continue to change with the times for better or worse.

Scruple – a doubt or hesitation that troubles the conscience or that comes from the difficulty of determining whether something is right.

[TF_Dodge]

What is right for one person may not be right for another !

Here endeth the lesson !

[TF_FBlues]

Will it make any difference now you’ve looked it up? I’d be obliged if you could name one style or method in our sport that would ever have come under the heading of cheating that is now considered acceptable?

Dodge: I take it you are referring to conscience – can’t think of any other relevance to your comment or should it have been on another thread perhaps? Don’t often see you on angling matters these days.

[Anonymous]

I had to write an essay on the very subject of ethics in Uni as part of my Degree. I could have posted that but it would have openned up a big can of worms, FBlues.

Swimfeeder fishing was not allowed and would have been considered cheating in the past. Feeder fishing is now excepted in most forms of our sport as within the rules and an exceptable method within match fishing. Feeding baits with anything but your hands was not allowed under old match rules. Catapults, throwing sticks and pole cups to aid feeding are now the norm and excepted today as legal ways to feed. I might be wrong but i seem to remember reading some where that at one time feeding was not allowed in competitions. Clearly, rules have changed with the times to suit our sport.

Even within our old NFA match rules. There was always differences between the regions. Double hook lengths where and still are allowed in the North West but not exceptable across the rest of the country and would be called cheating!

[TF_Waveney One]

Size limits in matches down south and none upt north.

[TF_FBlues]

True Blue: someone fishing with a feeder when the rules stated it wasn’t allowed would have been cheating. The rules were made specifically to exclude swimfeeders, catapults etc. In fact the rules, which you are probably too young to recall, unfortunately I’m not, were that ALL BAITS HAD TO BE INTRODUCED BY HAND.

It wasn’t people cheating that changed it, it was accepting that it wasn’t unethical to use them – although some stuck to not doing so – as it was part of angling’s evolution. One angler WAS disqualified from a National in the early 1960s for placing a rolled-up Daily Express full of maggots over his swim so they could crawl out. Stroke-puller.

Legering was banned for many years, as it is now in the World Champs etc. That’s because they are the Float Fishing Champs so laying on isn’t even allowed, even though stroke-pullers are caught quite often.

Using two hooks is against most regional byelaws, which override all match rules. Retaining undersized fish was against regional byelaws, ditto. Neither were accepted into the mainstream because people pulled strokes: fish were measured and using two hooks is pretty soon sussed out!

Cheating is breaking the rules to gain advantage and that’s it! Evading rules, from my standpoint, is cheating. Working outside the ethics and sportsmanship of angling is cheating. Deliberate foulhooking – how do you feel about that? It goes on, it goes on obviously. Should it be allowed because of that? I’d love to read your ethics essay; do you still have it?

Well done on your degree: I never even got an ‘O’ Level, left before I could take them.

[TF_AmerParticipant]

Keith hope you are well.

With regards to my point about ice breakers, it was in response to only a plummet is allowed to break the surface before a match starts.

Funny old game match fishing!! LOL

ATB

A

[TF_Gary]

I am glad I don’t fish in matches against TrueBlue and I would be keeping a close eye on him if I did! The argument of ‘stop worrying about people cheating and concentrate on catching more’ simply does not wash with me…

[TF_FBlues]

Hey Amer, all good at this end. Glad you’re back at the right end of a rod again mate. There’s no rule about the size of the plummet or thickness of the rope mate, lololololololol.

[TF_AmerParticipant]

Thanks Keith, I remember a match at West Drayton on the GU canal a few years back, the canal was frozen solid and proceeded to loose feed two ice breakers in my peg!! In the end I fished at 4m and came second. Lesson learnt that day don’t let me borrow your ice breaker! LOL

[Anonymous]

Your sort of making my point, FBlues. Unless the rules state that you cannot do something. In this case starring up the margins. Then, you can do it unless as you suggest. Its unethical. However, i might argue that it is not unethical to stir the water up before the match starts if every other angler has the choice to do the same if they so wish. The draw has been done and you have your piece of water to fish for the match. Its not pre-baiting. Its simply coloring up the water without adding anything to the water. Pre-baiting is allowed in International matches which goes much further than stirring up the water. Is pre-baiting ethical just because a set of match rules clearly state that it is allowed?

The key thing for me is that it is not hidden from other anglers.and all other anglers have to have the same choice to do something or not. Its then not a stroke or an attempt to cheat your fellow anglers. Its just something new! Its then for the rule makers to decide if that practice should be banned. Im against banning things for the sake of banning simply because some dont like the idea or it does not suit them. There has to be a fish or human welfare issue before i would argue for any ban.

[TF_rik_j]

Obviously it isn’t OK to do ANYTHING prior to the starting whistle that is supposed to attract fish to your swim… Use any excuse you want – if you do it and you know yourself you’re doing to attract fish, then you are cheating 🙂

It hasn’t anything to do with rules allowing something and disallowing something else – it’s about a mutual agreement that you start fishing at a given time, which means you prepare your gear and NOT your swim until then.

When it’s apparently OK to stir up silt to attract fish to your margin peg, then it’s probably also ok to chuck in a few grains of corn, or maybe some pellets? If nobody sees it, then you’re the smarter angler? If you have to use the “wash hands” excuse for stirring the silt, then you surely know you’re on thin ice? Or what about dipping your bomb in molasses or another smelly substance? Or what about slapping the surface for a full hour prior to the start, so the fish will get attracted by the noise?

I’ve fished against some of the top boys, and what strikes me is that most are true gentlemen of the sport – they don’t need to “prime” their swim prior to the match in order to catch. They use the means available and make the most out of the given circumstances. Or maybe I’m just so thick that I don’t notice 😉

[Anonymous]

rik_j, feeding anything before the start of the match is cheating pure and simple if the rules state no feeding before the all in. Preparing your peg to start fishing is very different than pre-baiting. Ice breaking is the perfect argument. However, as i,ve already stated. Pre-baiting is allowed in interational matches. So, there is clearly no one code within match fishing. Its just what rules are excepted on the individual fishery or in the type of match.

You would be amazed at what a few of the top anglers have been caught doing in matches!

[TF_FBlues]

True Blue: I know you like to argue but please don’t say what I have written proves your point! It IS against the rules of match fishing, the basic rules, to rake your swim before a match. That would include disturbing the bottom of the lake with your hands, feet or even boomps-a-daisy! If the fishery rules state SPECIFICALLY you can then it isn’t breaking those rules. However, if the fishery rules don’t include it, then it doesn’t. Gold Valley is pretty famous for its rules. Nowhere on them does it say I can’t use a trawl net. It doesn’t have to. It doesn’t say all fish must be caught on rod and line. It doesn’t have to. It doesn’t day we can’t use a dozen hooks at once. It doesn’t have to.

We don’t have many sets of rules made by the governing body of our sport, just the two National Rules and Model Match Rules which, as I said, are the basis from which a set of fishery match rules could be started. Unless they supersede or replace National Rules they are what our sport of match fishing runs to.

There is nowhere in the laws of football that says you can’t use an artificial leg and foot on a stick to take a shot on goal. I don’t think Louis Saha will be trying it though, do you, even though is own legs are a bit iffy?

Was your degree in argument for the sake of it?

[TF_FBlues]

PS: Which top anglers have been caught doing what? If you know then it’s common knowledge. Share with us.

[TF_herbie]

There is nowhere in the laws of football that says you can’t use an artificial leg and foot on a stick to take a shot on goal.

thats why the gooners have been potless for so long keefy.give van wotsisname a third leg :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

[TF_FBlues]

Just tried to get the bed next to Chicadildo or whatever he’s called so I can convalesce after having my sides stitched up following your hilarious humour Wiltshere Manc. Was it you that thought of the ‘ooo-arr Cantona’?

[TF_MICK THE BOOKIE]

Herbie………..Please leave “my babies” alone.Arsenal fans know all our short comings in front of goal thankyou very much.We dont need a bloody United fan stating the bleeding obvious.
This thread relates to “cheating” which your side knows enough about to write a book,…lol.
When am i seeing you next you old fart.Are you coming up for the Charity Shield? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[TF_FBlues]

Shouldn’t Mancs be coming down for the Charity Shield? Not up or across. It’s like a crossword. The M2, M3 and M4 will be packed.

[TF_Time Traveller]

I sat next to a very well known respected angler on Porth Res during a festival week. He was first on the boat and set up almost before anyone else.

Then he spend the next 3/4 of an hour throwing a heavy bomb out into his peg and just dragging it in……Was He Cheating ??!!!

Of course he was….battered the lake…..but it was “THE Flier” as well

[TF_lloydy1970]

Anglers that get caught cheating should have their names and picture splattered over the weeklies, there is definately too much cheating going on and one of the biggest problems is it’s overlooked by fishery owners. Bait limits is the worst, some of the things i’ve heard anglers come out with to justify why they take 4 tins of corn when the limit is 2 is unbelievable. It has definately kept me away from commercial fishing and when i do go i tend to go to 1’s with no bans so i can’t be cheated. Why after i’ve been to work all week should some little scumbag cheat me out of my pool money.

Sorry. rant over

[TF_Swimfeeder]

When you witness him doing this, wait till he is bent over and stick your toe up his arse and make sure the whole of his body enters the water, if he asks why you did it, tell him you were only trying to assist him in clouding up his swim……………or you could tell the match organiser and let him/her deal with it.

[TF_herbie]

@FBlues wrote:

Shouldn’t Mancs be coming down for the Charity Shield? Not up or across. It’s like a crossword. The M2, M3 and M4 will be packed.

alas keith you like many others think where you live is where you come from :p :p :p lancashire manc living in somerset would be closer although i did once live in cheshire 😮 but we dont talk about that. 😀 i,m trying to get tickets michael :rolleyes: as for cheating i am reminded of a match i fished at woodland view a few years back. HEMP is banned so the lad next to me pots in around 10 pints. his mate opposite boasts for all to hear that he,s got 15 pints. i raise the issue with the owner and was told ” i cant be everywhere at once” my reply was don’t make rules you cant police. haven’t been back since.

[TF_JonniTimms]

a match i fished yesterday the guy next to me repeatedly cast a hook free pellet waggler before the all in. i assume it was to get some sound in the water.

what are your guys thoughts on that?his reason was “practice throws” as he wasnt fishing with a line clio

[Author]

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