O/T Firemen

[TF_caster robParticipant]

and they’re going on strike for bonfire night:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1324586/Firefighters-refused-help-men-drowning-freezing-lake-didnt-water-training.html

Someone might notice.

[TF_Gary]

I do not wish to play down the role of a fire fighter at all. They do a very important job and frequently take calculated risks to save others.

BUT

When was the last time that you saw an advertisement for a job as a fire fighter? The pay is excessive and terms and conditions are distinctly ‘public sector’. I completely support the London authorities in their firm stance against the reckless FBU.

[TF_Snooty Fox]

Right, I listened to an interview with one of the country fire brigade union leaders on TalkSport the other day.

The interviewer questioned why it was bonfire night and the answer was that there was no other suitable dates available.
The interviewer then said he would suggest a date – the 6th November (day after bonfie night).
The union bloke said (wait for it)…………………………..

”we can’t do that day because it is the Muslim Festival of Diwali”

WTF IS THAT ALL ABOUT !!!!!!!!!!~sick

[TF_D.W.]

Diwali is a Hindu festival, not Muslim

[TF_nick t]

@Gary wrote:

I do not wish to play down the role of a fire fighter at all. They do a very important job and frequently take calculated risks to save others.

BUT

When was the last time that you saw an advertisement for a job as a fire fighter? The pay is excessive and terms and conditions are distinctly ‘public sector’. I completely support the London authorities in their firm stance against the reckless FBU.

Reading the Daily Mail article it appears that the firemen were a retained crew. This is the norm in rural areas.

Retained Firemen only won the right to pensions this year after a High Court ruling.

The full annual retainer fee for a competent Retained Fireman is £2821 per year plus an hourly rate which is something like £12 per hour when called for duty. Trainees get an annual fee of £2116 and something like £9 ph on a call-out.

To get the full retainer they have to commit to being on call for 120 hours per week. Any less than this and they get 75% of the annual retainer.

In addition, they have to live or work no more than 5 minutes from the station.

I would hardly say that their pay and terms and conditions were excessive.

By way of comparison, salaries for full time firemen start at £21k for trainees rising to £28k for fully trained.

Again, I would not consider this to be excessive, given the nature of their jobs.

Wayne Rooney on £250k per week or a Fireman on £550? I know which offers best value for money.

[TF_Gavin]

Send them to Afghanistan, let them earn their money out there….

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

Firemen regularly put their own lives at risk and are highly skilled. Good luck to them.

[himoverthereParticipant]

I find it amazing that people think firemen are well paid. think about what these guys do and then the pay. its a bad paid job.

[TF_JohnH]

I used to live next door to a fireman and we both worked shifts. On night shift they were on stand down after midnight and went to bed. He had another job as well as fire fighting as he worked 4 days then had 4 off.
I too can never recall seeing a firemans job advertised as any vacancies tend to be filled by family members, I wonder why?
I dont wish to pick an argument but they do seem to be going on strike at the drop of a hat these days and claim to have public support.

I guess its no different to any other public sector job, very secure (up to now) and quite out of touch with the real world.
I have worked all my life in the private sector where things are a little more dynamic and strikes are not a common thing.

[TF_Pikey]

I also admire the job that Firemen do and also know a fair number of them. Whilst they do a brilliant job, I wish I could be paid to tie rigs and sleep and be paid for it.

Nick T – Are you saying that all firemen live with 5 mins of their fire station ?

[TF_nick t]

@Pikey wrote:

I also admire the job that Firemen do and also know a fair number of them. Whilst they do a brilliant job, I wish I could be paid to tie rigs and sleep and be paid for it.

Nick T – Are you saying that all firemen live with 5 mins of their fire station ?

No.

That condition only applies to Retained Firemen.

Most Retained Firemen are based in rural areas and there are only 3 Fire Brigades in the country that don’t employ Retained Firemen.

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

Matt Wrack, general secretary of the Fire Brigades Union

On 11 August, the London Fire Brigade formally began the legal process of terminating the employment contracts of 5,600 London firefighters. If they had not started that process, the LFF would not be on strike. If the dismissals are lifted now, the strike will be called off straight away. The LFB is trying to bully them, and they won’t have it. That’s why there was a 79% majority in our ballot for a strike, on a 79% turnout

we’ve made it clear we are prepared to find a way through, and until 11 August I thought the London Fire Brigade were too. Here is what I think has changed. The London fire and emergency planning authority is chaired by councillor Brian Coleman, a particularly aggressive Tory who seems to take pleasure in sneering at firefighters, and minimising the dangers and difficulties of their work and the skill required to do it. Coleman’s most recent contribution to the debate was to confirm that the 11 August letter was “as good as” a letter of dismissal, adding: “I’m quite relaxed about that… firefighters who don’t sign the new contract won’t be re-employed.”

To get us back to work right now, we only need the dismissal letters withdrawn. But in the long term, an employer who shows some respect for our members’ dedication and professionalism would work wonders.

26,000 workers at Birmingham city council have received similar letters under section 188; so too have 8,500 at Sheffield city council. It is a real return to Victorian values: “Do it our way or clear off!”

Good old Tory values. ~naughty

[TF_JohnH]

NWCA you do not say what is at the heart of this dispute, I do not know but I guess its about modernisation and change to working practices. In other words its about efficiency, value for money for the tax payer and the FF are fighting to preserve the status quo.
Where I live all the steelworks closed and all the pits closed and many were arguing to keep them open with tax payers susidies, I was one of those people.
It simply does not work!
I feel sorry for people affected but the world has moved on and our public services need to get into the 21st century.
South Yorkshire firefighters were on stike a few months back because of a dispute over shift times!! Lifes too short..

[TF_dirkdiggler]

when i was a lot younger i witnessed a fire at the doorway of an old peoples home.
a few brave members of the public were beaten back by the flames and there were still several elderly people trapped inside.
the fire engine screeched to a halt and a fireman literally ran at a burning door,smashed through it and came straight back out carrying an elderly lady.
followed in and out by his colleagues until the building was empty of people, then they set about putting the fire out.
this episode has always made me hold the fire service in a very high regard i’d say alongside police,doctors and nurses they command no where near the respect they deserve from the public they so gladly serve.
politicians on the other hand of all parties are self serving scum who can’t even lye straight in bed at night.

[TF_Dodge]

Up the Firemen ~clap ~clap ~clap

Plenty more working class folk going on strike soon ….. get used to it ! ~clap ~clap ~clap

[TF_Kevin Leach]

I back the firemen, they are getting shafted. I am sure there is not a fireman in the country who wants to strike on bonfire night. They have been backed into a corner and good for them they have responded. Keep up the good work fellas.

[TF_andy cranes mateParticipant]

@JohnH wrote:

I feel sorry for people affected but the world has moved on and our public services need to

priceless

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

@JohnH wrote:

NWCA you do not say what is at the heart of this dispute, I do not know but I guess its about modernisation and change to working practices. In other words its about efficiency, value for money for the tax payer and the FF are fighting to preserve the status quo.
Where I live all the steelworks closed and all the pits closed and many were arguing to keep them open with tax payers susidies, I was one of those people.
It simply does not work!
I feel sorry for people affected but the world has moved on and our public services need to get into the 21st century.
South Yorkshire firefighters were on stike a few months back because of a dispute over shift times!! Lifes too short..

John you need to read. The strike is not about working practices.

In the LFB our negotiations were originally about shift patterns. Until 11 August, talks were being conducted in what both sides recognised was a constructive spirit.

To get us back to work right now, we only need the dismissal letters withdrawn.

A Tory councillor stoking the ‘fires’ sorry for the pun and other politicians making ludicrous comments from both parties does not help. Our politicians no matter what their allediance have no right to adopt a holier than thou attitude given their disgracedul antics in recent years.

You are not negotiating if you are sending letteers of dismissal out.

[TF_caster robParticipant]

@Dodge wrote:

Up the Firemen ~clap ~clap ~clap

Plenty more working class folk going on strike soon ….. get used to it ! ~clap ~clap ~clap

Oh I can get used to that alright, I just hope they can get used to more of their jobs going abroad.

Anyways, looks like the strike is being led by the Hon. Member for Kircaldy judging by his parliamentary attendance record. For 172 days pay he’s turned up twice (once to be sworn in) and voted once.

Looks like Gordon’s really championing the cause of his constituents and not staying at home writing a book at the taxpayers expense or anything like that.

[TF_Dodge]

@caster rob wrote:

@Dodge wrote:

Up the Firemen ~clap ~clap ~clap

Plenty more working class folk going on strike soon ….. get used to it ! ~clap ~clap ~clap

Oh I can get used to that alright, I just hope they can get used to more of their jobs going abroad.

Anyways, looks like the strike is being led by the Hon. Member for Kircaldy judging by his parliamentary attendance record. For 172 days pay he’s turned up twice (once to be sworn in) and voted once.

Looks like Gordon’s really championing the cause of his constituents and not staying at home writing a book at the taxpayers expense or anything like that.

AND ?

Are you stalking me again cr ?

[TF_caster robParticipant]

No, I was looking for a coherent intelligent reply, but all you can come up with is stalking s^&t.

[TF_Snooty Fox]

@D.W. wrote:

Diwali is a Hindu festival, not Muslim

Err, I apologise to all Hindus and Muslims.

By the way its CHRISTMAS soon

[TF_Snooty Fox]

@Kevin Leach wrote:

I back the firemen, they are getting shafted. I am sure there is not a fireman in the country who wants to strike on bonfire night. They have been backed into a corner and good for them they have responded. Keep up the good work fellas.

LOL – they all voted.

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

@JohnH wrote:

NWCA you do not say what is at the heart of this dispute, I do not know but I guess its about modernisation and change to working practices. In other words its about efficiency, value for money for the tax payer and the FF are fighting to preserve the status quo.
Where I live all the steelworks closed and all the pits closed and many were arguing to keep them open with tax payers susidies, I was one of those people.
It simply does not work!
I feel sorry for people affected but the world has moved on and our public services need to get into the 21st century.
South Yorkshire firefighters were on stike a few months back because of a dispute over shift times!! Lifes too short..

John you do realise how much money a Conservative Prime Minister / A Conservative government WASTED inn a personal feud between herself and Scargill.

£6 billion

Maybe the subsidy you did not want was cheap as chips in comparison ~think

[TF_caster robParticipant]

@NWCA:

“John you do realise how much money a Conservative Prime Minister / A Conservative government WASTED inn a personal feud between herself and Scargill.

£6 billion

Maybe the subsidy you did not want was cheap as chips in comparison “

Not sure from where the £6 billion figure is derived, cost of policing the strike, lasting over a year perhaps, or the downturn in industrial output because of it?

Whatever, that’s small beer.

The saviour of the financial universe blew more than that with the stroke of a pen:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/7542525/Gordon-Brown-accused-of-cover-up-over-gold-sale.html

and then, instinctively, tried to hide it.

What a guy.

[TF_caster robParticipant]

@Dodge wrote:

@caster rob wrote:

@Dodge wrote:

Up the Firemen ~clap ~clap ~clap

Plenty more working class folk going on strike soon ….. get used to it ! ~clap ~clap ~clap

Oh I can get used to that alright, I just hope they can get used to more of their jobs going abroad.

Anyways, looks like the strike is being led by the Hon. Member for Kircaldy judging by his parliamentary attendance record. For 172 days pay he’s turned up twice (once to be sworn in) and voted once.

Looks like Gordon’s really championing the cause of his constituents and not staying at home writing a book at the taxpayers expense or anything like that.

AND ?

Are you stalking me again cr ?

Er, no, not stalking.

It seems you’ve failed to notice that this is an open public forum where posters reply to points made by others.

Sadly it appears that this concept is beyond you, unless, perish the thought, that you are unable to reply coherently and resort to divertionary tactics in a thinly veiled attempt to disguise this fact.

[TF_Dodge]

@caster rob wrote:

@Dodge wrote:

@caster rob wrote:

@Dodge wrote:

Up the Firemen ~clap ~clap ~clap

Plenty more working class folk going on strike soon ….. get used to it ! ~clap ~clap ~clap

Oh I can get used to that alright, I just hope they can get used to more of their jobs going abroad.

Anyways, looks like the strike is being led by the Hon. Member for Kircaldy judging by his parliamentary attendance record. For 172 days pay he’s turned up twice (once to be sworn in) and voted once.

Looks like Gordon’s really championing the cause of his constituents and not staying at home writing a book at the taxpayers expense or anything like that.

AND ?

Are you stalking me again cr ?

Er, no, not stalking.

It seems you’ve failed to notice that this is an open public forum where posters reply to points made by others.

Sadly it appears that this concept is beyond you, unless, perish the thought, that you are unable to reply coherently and resort to divertionary tactics in a thinly veiled attempt to disguise this fact.

Really ? ~think ~think

There you go again !

Dont go near a fire will you ~sick

[TF_caster robParticipant]

“Really ?

There you go again !

Dont go near a fire will you “

At least you’re consistent.

You’re consistently incapable of an intelligent reply.

[TF_Kevin Leach]

Caster rob i back the firemen and Dodge on this one. Are living in a bubble and can not see whats going on here? Are you really that narrow minded?

[TF_caster robParticipant]

I’m not the one in the bubble, that’s where the public sector’s been for the last ten years or so.

The gravy train’s hit the buffers and its’ time to disembark.

How narrow-minded am I?

[TF_Kevin Leach]

Learn the True facts, not the ones printed in the tabloids before making judgements. Our firemen do a tough job, day in day out.They deserve decent pay and decent contracts and not to be shafted. If the only way they can get a fair deal is to strike then so be it. I hope you never need to depend on the fire service,but if you do do they will be there for you 100%.even if they are on strike i bet they will still come if its an urgent call.

[TF_caster robParticipant]

I’m always hearing how tough it is for various sectors, how bad the job is, how rottten the conditions are, the pay’s piss-poor, etc.

Go do something else, no-one’s forced them to be firemen or whatever.

PS. Thanks for the courtesy of the logical reply, unlike the stalking tripe I have to contend with.

[TF_Kevin Leach]

Caster rob, do you know any firemen? do you know how much hard work and training they do? I can put you in touch with one if you want to see if you change your ideas.

[TF_Kevin Leach]

If not, i hope you die in a fireball you sad twat.

[TF_caster robParticipant]

My daughter’s friends husband is a fireman so I’ve a reaonably contemporary awareness of the job.

But as for any job, it’s not forced labour and you have to take the rough with the smooth.

[TF_caster robParticipant]

@Kevin Leach wrote:

If not, i hope you die in a fireball you sad twat.

And they said intelligent debate was a dying art.

[Ozzie]

Caster Rob = Stuck up snob / know it all from Lichfield.

Why do I and others get wound up by a noddy.

As for the fireman what about 9/11.

[TF_Kevin Leach]

Caster rob hopefully.

[TF_daveroberts]

My dad was a fireman for 20 years and loved the job.

He went on strike in the 70s with the rest of the country when the pay was a joke and they won their fight. They had to endure critisism as with any strike but it was a just cause.

A few years back when the firefighters went on strike again I spoke with a former collegue of my dad and there was a feeling that in this area they weren’t really that bothered by their cause but were doing it in support of the London firefighters.

I fear striking on Bonfire night is going to be a big own goal.

[TF_JohnH]

Guys please do not make this personal we are all entitled to opinions lets keep the debate civilised.
Going on stike will only make matters worse as the public has no appetite for it anymore. I cringe when I see films of the miners strike and some of the earlier ones at the likes of Leyland. Just look at what has happened since. I used to hate M Thatcher but what she had to do was essential, like her or loathe her she did what it said on the tin.
The public finances are in a mess and need to be cleared up, fail to do so and interest rates will soar and many will be forced out of their homes and unemployment will boom out of control. We cannot afford these services and if people choose to strike it will simply accelarate what is going to happen anyway, if they cant see that they need to look no further than recent history.

[TF_Dodge]

Not only is caster rob a stalker he is a sad opiniated tory twat who gets on everyones tits!

Get a f*****g life !!!

[TF_caster robParticipant]

@Dodge wrote:

Not only is caster rob a stalker he is a sad opiniated tory twat who gets on everyones tits!

Get a f*****g life !!!

Evading the point as ever.

Can it be that hard to think of an answer?

Even one?

[TF_maker]

Diwali starts november 5th this year, next friday?

[TF_DAT]

Caster Robs opinion is just as valid/important as anyone elses.Opinions are never wrong,its only when you state an opinion as a fact that you can be wrong.Many of us doing “important” work are on a lot less than what fireman earn but working in the private sector gives us the like it or lump it choice.As Caster Rob points out no one points a gun at you and says be a fireman,its a choice and if you dont like it do something else.We have to face that we are in the sh*t at this time(blame Brown,blame the bankers it dont matter,we are in it and have got a government who have prescribed some tough medicine to get us out of it)and old working practises have to go,its tough but we have to get used to it.Next will be the posties and there 10 minutes overtime=4 hours pay!
I work a lot in public health labs,where a hell of a lot of the people working there are earning just a little over the minimum wage,please try telling them that £28,000 is a crap wage and that you need your shift patterns setting so that you can do a second job around it.
And before anyone has a pop,no i wouldnt do the job as i will admit to not being brave enough.

[TF_matt haines]

just to dispell a few myths about the modern fire service, most brigades not had beds for 6 years, take home pay for a firefighter is about £1570 and we pay £260 a month pension. there are various shift patterns not just 4 on 4 off. we do lot more than just fires we are also trauma trained now respond to all terroist incidents and spend loads of time doing community fire safety work, not playing pool!! as the tables have also gone. As for the original post, a sub officer in manchester died trying to rescue someone from a lake thats where all the politics came from, personally i know what i would do but if something goes wrong my gaffa would be at fault for not stopping me! at the end of the day people expect us to save people!

[TF_Gary]

The choice of date clearly has malicious intent and will backfire as the public will not tolerate this (except for a few quasi-communist loons like Ken Livingstone).

The dispute has been attributed (by the FBU) as being in relation to a threat to dismiss 5,600 firefighters (that being the entire London fire brigade). By stalling over what appear to be pretty reasonable changes to shift patterns, etc, the FBU has left the London authorities with little choice but to remind employees of the powers that they can exercise. In the same way, the FBU has chosen to exercise its powers (of strike action).

I find it absolutely ridiculous that, in the modern age, where employment legislation is stacked so far in favour of the employee, that strike action can ever be considered necessary. If you do not like your job or its associated terms and conditions, walk away and go and find another one! Simples!

Matt Haines, please may you assist us in further dispelling myths by describing a typical 15-hour night shift (notwithstanding the fact that there is probably no such thing as a ‘typical’ shift in such a job) I am pretty sure that you do not spend too much of your night shift on community safety work as most people are in bed, but I am intrigued to know what constructive things the service have you working on in between call outs. Thank you.

[TF_matt haines]

most brigades who do not have beds no longer work a 15hr shift we now work 14hr as anything over 14hr they have to supply a bed! as with most jobs now we have targets and standards we have to meet and as well as meeting our targets for commuity work and training we still need to maintain all the equipment and record all our work on computers. a typical night shift not including calls. shift start at 6pm 6-6:45 roll call and check truck and BA. 6.45 till 9 will either be home fire saftey checks and smoke alarm fitting, or there will be aranged training at various locations! 9-10 diner, 10 till 3 can consist of any station routines e.g equipent maintinance and checks, lectures, training, study, and inputting all on computer with breaks. 3 till 6.30 stand down where we are allowed to rest but not sleep! chairs are provided the same as you would find in a care home, ( anyone caught sleeping could face the sack) 6.45 break 7-8 clean and fuel truck and make sure everything is tidy for oncoming shift. 8 go home!

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

It does make me smile posters equating a job like fire fighting with jobs where you can literally plan your day out in advance. The intensity with which firefighters have to work at periods is something that most of us will never be able to relate to.

Having read around. The London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority want to alter shift patterns. The FBU said fine can we discuss it. During those discussions the FBU argued that reducing night time cover was short sighted and put lives at risk. Matt will probably confirm that yes the fire services attend less calls during the night BUT the calls they do attend at night tend to be far more severe and life threatening. Makes sense doesn’t it. WHO KNOWS MORE ABOUT FIRE FIGHTING, the Fire fighters or councillors et al sat on the LFEPA? I know who I trust.

The LEFPA response was to issue dismissal notices. Despite being told by the fire fighters your proposals are flawed we want to ammend them and improve them to offer a better service the LEFPA took a Victorian stance and said so what, agree or dismiss. How dare you question us. BTW the 1992 Act is a disgrace. YET we as British Citizens allowed it and even in this thread there are people with no stomach to stand up for what is right. Waving the white flags has go this country in the mire.

The response of politicians is how can you strike on such a night. Why not. Who wants to put lives at risk for the rest of the year and the years thereafter by ill considered changes. Is there ANYBODY here that does not think workers should do thei upmost to stop poor working practices that put people’s lives at greater risk. The people who understand fire fighting are the fire fighters. We should trust them.

The 5th Nov, the authorities will pay private contractors.

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

Can I add personal insults / slurs are silly. I have totally different political views than Rob and we disagree regularly but he is entitled to his view, as I am, as are others. Personal abuse is not called for.

[TF_matt haines]

yeah NW we do tend to get bigger incidents during the night mainly because fires go unnoticed for longer at night. any large incident however still need the same resources during day and night whatever the time thats what politicans seem to miss! all our shifts are gonna change with the way the cuts are coming looks like im gonna be working 96hr on 96hr off, i think the main point that london are not happy about is the way there employer have said were gonna change there shifts if you dont like it we will slap 90 day notice on ya if you dont sign then theres the door! if every employer in the country did that we would be like cuba, should be negotiation and consultation! Fire stations will be closing up and down the country in the coming years if the public are happy with that then so be it! we certainly are not but will prob not end up striking over it as we will not get the support! people will be missing the point!

[TF_Kevin Leach]

Could backfire on them if everyone told them to stick it where the sun dont shine. It will never happen, mortgages to pay and things like that. I dont agree with the way they have gone about though. keep up the good fight though, I back you all the way

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

It is very sad the lack of solidarity in this country today. I always look at it that if it is happening to X then who is next? Me? You? The more we stand by and ignore what happens to somebody else the closer it becomes Mine and Your turn.

How we ever allowed the 90 Day Fiasco to become law says so much about what we as ordinary people have become and are prepared to allow ourselves to be subjected to.

[TF_One Out of the Frame]

I’ve been watching this post with interest. I should say that I am very much a Left Winger and was a Branch Secretary for a Health Service Trade Union from 1987-1991.

The employer will play the 80/20 rule most of the time as they can be sure that the work force will simply comply. Under certain circumstances ordinary people will force extraordinary results: In 1988, the Branch I was involved with had about 1500 members. We had a ‘show of hands’ vote to support 30 people threatened with dismissal (in very similar circumstances to those above) and it resulted in the last ‘all out’ strike in the Health Service with 98% support! I was gob smacked. More importantly 30 jobs were saved and the workforce was treated with a damn site more respect and consideration.

I fervently believe there will be a resurgence in the Trade Union movement as the current situations cannot be allowed to continue.

I can’t help but think of the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller:

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

[TF_caster robParticipant]

There’s a lot to be said for living in Germany.

[TF_One Out of the Frame]

Germany is a fantastic place to live in! I used to get over there two or three times a year to visit a friend who lived in Bremen and absolutely loved the place. Superb beer, service, manners that we seem to be sadly lacking these days (as evident by some of the posts above) but I’m sure that I would not have wanted to live there in the 1930’s to ’40’s though. (Especially when the Focke-Wolfe plant was the target of attentions!!!)

How are you doing anyway Rob? Diametrically opposed politically I see but I won’t let that stand in the way of our friendship! How is the health and are you back on the bank menacing the fish on the Trent?

[Author]

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