Shallow fishing for carp in the winter

[TF_Tickle]

Does anybody try this, what do you find best? Do you think slapping would work?

[TF_Steve Lockett]

Yes, yes mate. Just need to find the depth they want to be at. If it is 4′, why fish on the bottom at 6′?

[TF_Gavin]

I quite often catch carp shallow in the winter, especially in water deeper than about 4ft. Against reeds (margins and across on canal/snake lakes) also is very worth a try “up”.

I tend to just flick odd casters out when fishing in open water, but don’t feel that you need to slap to attract the fish as instead of creating competition your really just trying to catch fish at the depth they’re most comfortable sitting at in the water column.

Against features you often don’t need to feed as the carp are usually already in them as they feel safe and feeding can actually spook them.

[TF_Tickle]

thanks for the replies. So if you were fishing staffordmoor how would you go about catching carp off the bottom in the cold, would you still fish pellets?

[TF_AnthonywatersParticipant]

I’m not saying it doesn’t work fishing shallow in the winter but I will say its never worked for me and I’ve tried fishing off the deck and shallower various permatations on many occasions and never caught each to their own I suppose I hear of people catching on paste when its white over I think its about beleiving and confidence

[TF_NathanWatson]

Catch a lot shallow in winter but on the waggler, not pole. Obviously this is on proper lakes, not snake scum where the pole would work! Normally catch 5 to 10ft deep in up to 20ft of water on the wag.

[TF_Tickle]

So in say 6-8ft of water try would try 4-5Ft? and what baits?

[TF_Gavin]

I’ve caught as shallow as 2ft in that depth of water, but it varies from day to day.

Baitwise, I’m not saying pellet won’t work but I tend to use maggot or caster. Again you’ll find it may vary from day to day and venue to venue. Try a few things and see what works for you.

Don’t neglect (if you have the room, and it’s allowed on the fishery) popping up baits on the bomb too.

[TF_NathanWatson]

I use pellets mainly and I know they do at Stafford Moor. Just go deeper if no bites, shallower if liners, foulhookers, signs of fish near top. In that depth, often best to set waggler on bottom and fish on drop, no shot down line, and cast regular as with any waggler fishing.

[Paul_T]

Hi Nathan, earlier you mentioned fishing deeper venues up in the water (UIW) between 5-10 feet. Could you give me some tips on how to tackle a venue which is approx 12-15 feet deep on the pole line at 14.5m deepening off to 30 feet in the middle please. I do OK in the summer on the pole up UIW, but would appreciate some tips on how to fish the waggler line this time of year please.

What floats would you use for fishing say 10feet deep? Would it be more like an insert peacock waggler for a river? How would you shot it, and what main line & hooklength line diameters would you use please? Would you have 2 different rods set up for say depths down to 5 feet and your deeper (10ft) rig, and would the set-up’s be much different in float choice?

The fish are carp between 2-4lb. Would you feed 4mm, 6mm or 8mm pellets please?

Thanks in advance.

Paul

[TF_NathanWatson]

It would depend on the size of lake and weather. Where I go fish move beyond pole range in winter but on smaller lakes the pole will work so I would start on the bottom, feeding 3 to 6 pellets regularly, 4 or 6mm on the pole and keep lifting and dropping rig and then if get signs of fish shallower have rigs at depths of say 8ft, 5ft and 3ft to try.

For the waggler it would depend on distance and weather, I use 8mm pellets mainly but on smaller venues and smaller fish 6mm may be better. I would normally set 2 or 3 rods up and for distance in wind I use a longish, loaded bodied waggler or long straight or insert waggler and for shallower it can be a pellet waggler in calm conditions or any of the same floats as for deeper really in wind and fishing 5ft plus. I never put any shot down the line and use 3 or 4lb Maxima, 3 is better in wind, 4 for bagging and big wagglers. I use 0.18mm hooklength to a 20 Fox series 2 with a band on hair for pellet, obviously lighter for smaller fish or maggot. I feed 3 to 6 pellets before I cast, then feed the same 2 yards short 30 secs later and reel over that for another 30 seconds, then reel in and repeat. Sometimes it can pay to cast beyond or to the sid of the feed.

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

Here is a question? If a venue has aerators switched on do they destroy the stratification of different temperature layers within water and thus make it less likely that the fish will be shallow?

[Paul_T]

Nathan, thanks for taking the time to reply, that’s really useful.

The venue I refer to is Wood Lane in Iver. Sounds similar to your venue in that the fish go beyond pole range in winter, and you probably have a 40yd chuck to the middle, maybe longer? I’m sure one of the regulars will correct me!

Thanks again,

Paul

[Anonymous]

Air pressure has more to do with where the fish sit in the water than temp. Add to this that if the sun is out (normally high pressure)and the water is clear. The carp are more likely to be very high up in the water and could be as shallow as only a few inches deep.

While its not yet winter. Last week we had a few frosts and the water temps are falling very quickly. I fished a match on Heronbrook fishery on Saturday. I won my match by catching up in the water on big bread punch. 14 inches deep in 3ft of water. Finding the correct depth was critical to getting real bites.

From what i know of Staford moor. Waggler is a top method in winter fished up in the water. Feed 1 or 2, 8/10 mm pellets every minute or 2 to create a little noise ut your not aiming to make the fish compete like fishing up in the summer. Start half depth and shallow up or go deeper depending on the number of line bites or no bites until you start to hook a few fish.

Corn, pellet and bread in particular work very well fished up in the water during the winter. Finding the best depth is the key thing to work out. Long lining on the pole and flicking the rig around the swim to find the fish can work very well on canal snake lakes and small pools. Waggler is normally best on bigger lakes as Nathan says.

[TF_C.S.HParticipant]

Good thread. Some interesting posts.

True Blue – how does air pressure effect the depth that you find carp in winter? Can’t get my head around that one.
Understand the thermocline business and how different weather conditions effect the position of the thermoclines in a lake. But air pressure is new to me. ~think ~think
I think any new theory is worth taking onboard if it improves results.

NW Cut Angler – aerators definately destroy thermocline. I sometimes worry about the use of these to prevent ice formation which insulates water below and prevents a certain amount of temperature loss during cold spells.
How cold does the water as a whole get when constantly chilled overnight and artificially mixed. Cant be good. Certainly not natural.

[Anonymous]

This might help. It is part of an article written by Giles Cockraine (Giles). If Giles see,s this. Hopefully he will add a bit more.

Temperature or Pressure?

Island pegs evidently provide some security for the fish but this does not explain why those carp are not always against those features on a regular basis. The other problem seems to be that when the temperature drops, anglers assume that the fish do not want to feed. Catching carp without feeding only means that the fish are looking for food because they are moving around in the peg. If they were not feeding then we would not be able to catch them. The other aspect to be considered is that some carp grab bait instinctively as it falls through the water but that will only explain a very small number of captures. Fish can be caught from the islands without feeding because they seem to be there of their own volition and not through any desire to look for food but this is the confusing part. Why would they choose to be in the shallowest part of the peg during the coldest parts of the day? The first few hours of the match are usually the coldest.

The Scientific Bit

Water is unique in that, above four degrees it is more dense and therefore heavier, sinking to the bottom, while below four degrees it rises to the surface because the density changes. The coldest water will invariably be in the first few layers near the surface. Therefore the effects of sun on the water temperature are negligible because as it warms it sinks! The other concern here is the time of day because the period, which is supposedly the warmest, between midday and 2:00 pm, is the most difficult time of day to catch carp. Again, why? This is certainly not a problem during the summer months.

What if carp move to the shallower areas of the peg because the high barometric pressure forces them there?

If they did not want to feed then we wouldn’t be able to catch any of them but evidently we do so I don’t think it has that much to do with water temperature.

Do fish acclimatise to the drop in temperature? We know that they do because they adjust the body temperature to their surroundings, so is temperature that important? It must play a part but the extent to which is unclear.

It takes carp around three days to acclimatise to high-pressure changes but after that period they will feed normally, regardless of the temperature.
After a week of high pressure, anytime between November and March, the normal and logical conclusion is that we would need to be on a deep-water peg in any match due to the drop in temperature. So why then are winter matches won from the shallower water in many cases?

Carp tend to shoal in the middle of the pool under these colder conditions, away from any disturbance and at a depth somewhere around mid water at least, particularly if the lake has no shallows as such. Seldom are they to be found on the bottom so this in itself has something to do with high-pressure changes and deeper water. Carp clearly do not like sudden changes from low to high pressure but once they acclimatise to it, they feed normally. For some reason carp seek out shallower water during recent periods of high pressure and this is why I believe that drawing on an island can increase your chances of winning under such conditions. I have won and framed in enough matches this year for this to be a coincidence.

What needs to clarified here is what we think we know about carp behaviour in colder weather or more appropriately, barometric pressure fronts.

Big weights of carp are caught on the pole in the summer but this is usually only possible during high-pressure fronts, often accompanied by warmer conditions so in this case, temperature might play a part. However, the waggler fished shallow in the winter during a cold snap (high pressure) has resulted in some very big bags of carp but only because the fish have shoaled into one or two pegs. In that case the fish have been forced into shoaling under very cold conditions but that doesn’t prevent the fish from feeding. In fact, quite the op

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

Thanks for that TB. Still confused but thanks. I can understand the HP / LP switching fish off and needing a few days of consistency etc.

I may be talking nonsense here but what the heck nothing new etc lol

HP in winter = clear skies frost / low temps in the morning but the sun shines etc. I can see the fish shoaling up together more because increased clarity may/may not result, no cloud overhead. Fish feel more danger?

Who knows ~think

[Anonymous]

High pressure means a good chance of catching up in the water or against islands, on top of shallow bars and even in the margins. Against many ideas re temps in the middle of winter.

[TF_Gavin]

A simple way to understand the high/low pressure is to think of it as “weight of air”. High means more force pushing down on the water, and as fish live in a something that is heavier than air (water) it makes it uncomfortable for them. They therefore tend to sit in areas with less water over them, for comfort. This could be in shallow near or far margins, or simply sitting in midwater in deep water.

Low pressure would be the opposite, with less weight on the water they feel more comfortable going down deeper.

[TF_C.S.HParticipant]

I’m never likely to receive the Nobel Prize for a contribution to scientific advancement; however my limited understanding of physics still leaves me a little confused by this theory.

If water at 4 degrees C has a density of 1000kg per cubic metre and air has a density of 1.2kg per cubic metre at 4 degrees C and we take that as a constant i.e. disregarding change in temperature (and accepting that the volume of air above the water is always constant). We are looking at a very small mass affecting a very large mass. Unlikely to have any significant effect.
We then adjust the barometric pressure.
Using the gas law Density D equals Pressure P divided by Gas Constant R multiplied by Temperature T. I calculate that for a change in barometric pressure from 990mb (low pressure system) to 1020mb (high pressure system) the net effect on the density of the air is less than 4 grams per cubic metre. Small potatoes in relation to the density of water – even when you factor in the change in pressure of the whole column of air above the water as it is only in the lower levels of the atmosphere that these pressure changes occur to any significant extent – air pressure drops with height.

Now if my maths is wrong please accept my apologies. But I cannot get my head around this business of carp feeling the weight of water above them change by atmospheric pressure alone. Water temperature has a much greater effect – at 20 degrees C water has a density of 998kg per cubic metre. The carp must feel a bit light headed at this temperature.

I might buy into the concept of fish feeling slight changes in barometric pressure in their swim bladder. But then let’s look into a fish rising or falling through 2 metres of water and the effects of change of water pressure on the swim bladder during this activity.
If it was that uncomfortable for a fish to experience this rapid change in pressure in the swim bladder, surely we would never see a fish jump.

Not wanting to rubbish anybodies ideas here. Just think there’s more to this than meets the eye and NW Cut Angler might be on the right lines.
You can’t disregard water clarity, temperature and thermoclines, sunlight, wind strength and direction, oxygen levels and a host of other unknowns – especially the differing behaviour of carp in different fisheries.
~think ~think ~think ~think ~think

[TF_NW Cut Angler]

An incredibly interesting topic

I often think back to Newton stretch of the Sankey St Helens Canal in winter and feeding caster if the day started cold but bright / clear skies then as the match progressed if overhead conditions changed and it became cloudy / overcast it was like flicking a switch and good stamp roach would feed / bite with a desire that seemingly did not exist 5 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours ago.

[TF_JohnH]

I have a pond at home and no matter the weather I cannot ever remember all the fish shoaled on the deck. In winter you can see them sat just under the ice if the pond is frozen over. Otherwise almost invariably they sit about half depth. Whilst I do understand the science we have to accept that fish behaviour is affected by many things one of the main ones being them feeling safe from predation, so they will tend to go where there is some cover for this reason if no other especially when water is clear. I think one reason they dont shoal on the deck is parasites, another is sour lake beds due to heavy feeding of anglers baits. In summer we can force them down by feeding but in winter heavy feeding can make them swim away as they are not looking for food as their bodies shut down due to the low temperatures.
This is why we can catch them in mid water on single odd baits, but only if we draw on them as they will not move much.
I do buy into the snatching of baits as one guy in our club fishes wag with a small piece of corn and no shot down, he catches the odd fish usually big ones.

[TF_baitchefParticipant]

Ben, I think you might be wasting your time fishing shallow when it gets really cold at Stafford. I don’t know if its changed much but years ago it was all waggler on the deck into open water and towards the bars, straight and inserted as well as big heavy loaded ones, especially when the wind got up and the conditions were awful!! Hair rig or banded pellet on the hook with loos feed over the top. Dot the float right down and hit every indication. The fish would usually turn up to those who persevered and fed consistently. A crucial tip was to take a bottle of washing up liquid with you and constantly pour it over the spool to sink the line, otherwise presentation was a nightmare. The pallets ended up looking like a washing machine , but it was the only way!!lol

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