so where do we go from here o/t

[TF_herbie]

as the country slips into yet another recession and employment reaches crisis levels just what can our leaders do.??? years upon years of mismanagement and pure greed means we no longer have the means to export our way out of trouble. we have long since sold the family silver , and are now dependant on foreign owners for work. one by one , slowly but surely they are taking there business elsewhere. we cannot control energy prices which cause the inflation and by reducing public services and sacking thousands of public servants we have affectedly told the poorest in our country to swivel. make no bones about it when the government say public jobs and services must be cut to save money, there not talking about their jobs there talking about services to the vulnerable and needy. this in turn means more money spent on welfare and less revenue into hm,s coffers. that leads to less money being spent in the system so more jobs go, and so on and so forth. so how do our leaders tackle this problem . well cameron gave the rail contract to germany, and in a stroke wiped out 200 years of engineering skills that we invented. we have some of the best inventors in the world by a street. do we back them. not a chance. so other country,s reap the vast benefits. so what is he doing . well to be fair he is trying to help the euro country,s out of there self imposed farce by giving billions via the I.M.F money he saved by not providing services for our elderly and sick.yes we will eventually get it back. but bloody hell we need investment NOW. he is also giving our money to people who don’t actually need it such as India and believe it or not CHINA. in oversea,s aid. were these high flyers/leaders/mp,s made to exist on welfare benefits for a year do you /anybody think those funds would go abroad. not a bloody chance. so what have i got to look forward too. bearing in mind i have a part time job. WELL
My wages are frozen for 2 years.
inflation is 5% forecast to be 3.5% next year total compounded over 2 years 10%
so my money will be reduced by 10% whilst my costs rise by 10%.
so my spending power over the next 2 years is reduced by 20%
now multiply that by 1.5 million ( public workers) and you can see that there will be a lot less cash about and therefore shops will close causing yet more welfare payments . this has a knock on effect elsewhere . distribution depots wont need as many staff and manufacturers wont either , yet more unemployed.to counter this they the government will have to borrow more and then cut yet more. slippy slope doesn’t begin to describe it.

GLAD IM OLD with my private pension. 😀

[TF_dirkdiggler]

Is it being happy that keeps you going then?
Sure we may well have a bit less disposable income and have to tighten our belts somewhat but at least we’re not speaking German or being shot at.
Snap out of it man and show some good old fashioned bulldog spirit 🙂

[TF_Gary]

We are in for hard times, but frankly it is because we were living off borrowed money through the last decade and are now going through a painful re-adjustment that has to happen at some point. Deficit spending cannot persist in perpetuity for individuals, households, companies or governments. The Irish populus recognised this and have sucked it up; the sooner we do the same, the better.

It’s not all bad news, though, even if the tabloids that I assume are the principal source of your ‘rigourous’ economic analysis would have you believe so. Picking up your very first point about export growth:
“years upon years of mismanagement and pure greed means we no longer have the means to export our way out of trouble”
Have you not been following the trade statistics? We are exporting MORE GOODS NOW THAN WE EVER HAVE. Good news, right? And who would have thought it?!

An export-led growth strategy is key to prosperity (think Germany, China…); however, picking up on your Bombardier example, subsidising inefficient companies / industries is not the basis of a sound export strategy. Let the Germans make their train sets and re-deploy the engineering skill in high growth sectors where we have a genuine competitive advantage (eg, aerospace).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/oct/13/uk-exports-trade-deficit

[TF_One Out of the Frame]

This link will get you thinking!

http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock

When you consider that there are seven billion of us on the planet and that substantial swathes of the world population would not be adding to the figure I think that this debt could only be arrived at by gross mismanagement by those in governmental offices.

Personally I’m paying more for fuel, insurance and food (all up approaching 30% from two years ago making a mockery of the supposed figures for inflation!).

My Mrs is a nurse so her wages are frozen but, fortunately for me, with people being forced into looking at ways to save money there is a 55% increase in people leasing cars and vans as it is so much better value to lease than buy at the moment. Meanwhile the retail market has sunk 18% (SMMT 2011)!

[TF_AnthonywatersParticipant]

Sounds a bit cruel but off loading all the migrant workers might be a start or as a country do we have a duty to look after everyone in this world

[TF_caster robParticipant]

” sacking thousands of public servants “

Servants? They sound like they do it for free.

“make no bones about it when the government say public jobs and services must be cut to save money”

They’re absolutely right.

“this in turn means more money spent on welfare”

Which is not dissimilar to spending it on local government.

“well cameron gave the rail contract to germany”

The German company which won the tender that the labour government issued, defeating its Canadian rival. Perhaps he should have “given it” to Canada?

“by not providing services for our elderly and sick”

Such as?

“he is also giving our money to people who don’t actually need it such as India and believe it or not CHINA.”

I don’t understand that either, unless reciprocal investment is expected.

“My wages are frozen for 2 years.”

Mine have been frozen for three.

“now multiply that by 1.5 million ( public workers)”

1.5 million?

I think we’re onto something here!

“GLAD IM OLD with my private pension.”

Glad I saved a few quid during the good years, unlike Gordon.

[TF_Kagger TNB]

Where do we go from here?

Couldn’t care less really.

I’ve had a gutful of politicians.

I hated the last lot with a passion for taxing me so much, whilst at the same time penalising my kids.

I hate this lot so much for taxing my kids extra before they’ve even entered the world of work.

Stuff the lot of them.

I no longer give to charity unless somebody I know is doing something very personal to them.

I do my best to look after myself and my family.

I couldn’t care less about anyone elses (*insert your own word here from the following list)

– benfits, pay, public sector pension, EMA, child care arrangements, schooling, care home, housing…..etc etc etc

[TF_Dodge]

Herbie !!!! GET REAL MAN !!!!!!!!

Last winter it was the snows fault ………

This winter its the eurozones fault 😮 😮 😮 HONESTLY ! CAMERON SAID SO….. IT MUST BE SO TRUE ! 😮 YEAH RIGHT ! 😡

Thank god all them 18 to 23 year olds with fantastic qualifications can look forward to a career stacking shelfs at Aldi and Lidl !

Labour has the wrong Miliband running the show ……. Cameron and Clegg are getting away with murder ! 😡 😡

[TF_toplights]

A few less Politicians would be a good start.Also have a four year residancy qualification to claim welfare benifits.We are a soft touch..

[Anonymous]

So where do we go from here – More of the same is the simple answer until our governments and society as a whole attempts to be look after more than just themselves and those that are doing ok. Give people jobs. Create jobs that take people off the dole and gives hope to the hidden unemployed. Make companies pay a living wage instead of companies always thinking about making even bigger profits. More people earning wages means more taxes and more money for employed people to spend in the shops. This in tern creates more need for more workers to supply the shops and industry. Build affordable houses, schools and hospitals. There are millions of people in private rented homes that are paying over the top for crap housing. Sort out our roads. A Government building sceem would/could create millions of jobs over night and for many years to come which would lift peopes lives out of povety and give people homes, jobs,better health care and better education for the young. Tax the leguslate against companies that make massive profits, and pay hugh bonuses to people who dont need them. Stop these same companies from passing on price rises to customers every year to make even higher profits. The list goes on. Simple answer is to get people back in to work for the good of all. However, its not something this Government or rich want as it does not suit the rich and powerful or those that have done very well for themselves!

[TF_caster robParticipant]

“until our governments and society as a whole attempts to be look after more than just themselves and those that are doing ok.”

Our current welfare expenditure: remind me how much it is and where it goes, please.

“Create jobs that take people off the dole and gives hope to the hidden unemployed.”

You can’t create jobs (unless we end up with even more unsustainable council non-jobs than we already have) you have to create work. ie a real economic demand for a genuine service or product. Creating jobs just leads to bogus tractor production figures.

” Build affordable houses, schools and hospitals.”

Unlike the overpriced housing-bubble and unaffordable PFI schools and hospitals that Gordon Brown saddled us with. Good idea.

“Sort out our roads.”

Yes. Shame Prescott scrapped the road-building programme, we’re still recovering from that.

” better education for the young.”

According to the last government’s figures, educational standards have never been higher.

“Tax the leguslate against companies that make massive profits, and pay hugh bonuses to people who dont need them.”

And then scratch your head in wonder as they transfer their operations overseas.

[TF_One Out of the Frame]

Rob: PFI was brought in by the Conservatives around 1990 when I was a Branch Secretary for the former Health Service Union CoHSE (Confederation of Health Service Employees). If a proper Labour Party had been elected then the PFI initiatives would have been thrown out as the sham that I knew they were over twenty years ago!

The problem was, and to a certain degree, remains so today is that there still is a get rich quick and f**k everyone else mentality. This might be great if you are sitting on millions and looking after family interests (Cameron and the wind farms springs to mind) but is not so great if you are in Middle England and thinking that if things are bad for me then they are going to be a damn sight worse for my children!

IF I could wave a magic wand, I would like to see proper politicians rather than ‘career’ ones and a wider diversity so that we are not swamped with the centre and centre left/right. We are facing a massive struggle to get back on an even keel and as I think that it is no less a struggle than the last World War then maybe even a coalition Government of all parties.

The other thing that I would love to see is a politician having the bottle to stand up and say just how bad it is and what we need to be doing to get out of it!

There are no short answers: Migrant workers nolonger find ‘here’ attractive and those that remain are doing jobs that the British don’t want but foriegn students flock here as it is cheap to study and our education system is World Class.

Whatever the answer is, we need to be doing something. Better to do something and get it wrong rather than to wait for the time to act and find out you are too late!

[TF_caster robParticipant]

I know the Tories introduced PFI Mark, but it was a drop in the ocean compared to how much Brown ran up on them.

We’ve got a big chunk of what should be public-assets on the never-never due to him.

And of course, everyone’s heard that under the contracts he agreed it costs some ridiculous figure like £60 or something to change a lightbulb!

[TF_Dodge]

@caster rob wrote:

I know the Tories introduced PFI Mark, but it was a drop in the ocean compared to how much Brown ran up on them.

We’ve got a big chunk of what should be public-assets on the never-never due to him.

And of course, everyone’s heard that under the contracts he agreed it costs some ridiculous figure like £60 or something to change a lightbulb!

Yes but £60 or whatever a light bulb being fitted is cheap compared to the bonuses etc etc the banking system pays itself ….. the very banking system that is directly effecting most of us right now except those that were born millioniares that is …….. and the very banking system that this coalition aspires to !

There is a very large amount of pissed off people right now ….. people who deserve a lot better !

[TF_One Out of the Frame]

Rob: Clip from “The Meaning of Life (1983)” when the Tories were in charge! lol

When I was in Health Service management I was forever having to juggle where to attribute expenditure (virement). This clip was even funnier for the off budget type remarks!

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1089936041015

[TF_Gary]

Mark, the debt clock is very interesting, but I assume that reflects GROSS debt? You cannot simply ignore the asset side of a balance sheet.

Debt per se is not a bad thing. It lets individuals buy things that they could not otherwise finance (eg, houses). It lets companies invest in new plant and equipment for growth. It allows governments to invest in long term infrastructure projects.

The flip side of this is that the presence of borrowers allows people to save and earn a return. By identity, you cannot have borrowers without savers (and vice versa). Imagine trying to save for a pension if your pension company could not invest in long term government bonds, corporate securities or institutions facilitating private lending.

In short, debt is part of a sound, functioning financial system. It facilitates an efficient allocation of capital between those who have no need for it in the short term (ie, savers) and those who need capital but do not have direct access to it (ie, borrowers).

Debt is, however, a bad thing in at least two circumstances:

1) When failure of government policy or other market distortions result in an inefficient allocation of capital. The boom in mortgage-backed securities is a classic example here: motivated by government policy to encourage home-ownership; sold through a market distorted by imperfect information and a failure to understand the underlying value of the debt being transferred.

2) When it is used to compensate for ongoing revenue shortfalls for individuals, companies or governments. In this case, lending is generally unsecured (eg, credit cards for individuals, overdrafts for companies). Governments can issue bonds to fund shortfalls in tax revenue because bond markets recognise the ability of governments to be able to raise tax revenue to fund their borrowing – to a point. It is, however, simply not possible to have a structural deficit in the long term, as it would result in a ballooning debt balance which is not underpinned by corresponding assets or security. Or in the case of governments, the debt pile would burgeon to such a level that tax increases required to fund their borrowings are politically untenable (sound familiar?)

At the moment, we clearly have both of these ‘bad’ types of debt; hence my comment relating to a “painful re-adjustment” as they are worked out of the system.

[TF_herbie]

dont you just love it , i pen a few words and all my old friends appear after months of inaction 😀
rob why do you assume public servants are all pin striped pen
pushers earning lots of wonga?? 95% earn basic wages , do very important jobs in the community , and cannot be removed without the very needy in our society suffering. that my son is a fact.
sreve/g your quite correct re infrastructure, but we would rather spend more money on war and the IMF.
build a new school or bomb Libyan children. have meals on wheels for the elderly or kill some afgan family. gary nothing i can say will get you back to earth from bankers heaven.
we export more now than we ever have . i laughed so much ive lost my teeth again. is that the export where we get the goods in kit form , put it together and ship it out again.or is it the paper export from your lot, because its certainly not goods British workers have made. the answer to all our problems are quite simple really. stop blaming everything that’s wrong on yesterdays leaders and concentrate on mending broken Britain. all you have to do is look back to 1980 when we had a balance of payments , owned our utilities and transport systems ( dont you dare tell me they were rubbish we all know they were deliberately underfunded) get our kids back into work by investing the capitol that is wasted on wars . kick out all foreign workers and if the feckless wont do there work let them starve.

think about this . one bomb that killed a family of libyans cost £600,000. how many meals can you buy for £600,000. AND WE DROPPED THEM DAILY FOR 10 MONTHS.

[TF_Gary]

More good news… retail sales up in October:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15771780

Cheer up herbie!

[TF_One Out of the Frame]

@Gary wrote:

More good news… retail sales up in October:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15771780

Cheer up herbie!

They may be ‘up’ but at 0.6% I bet you won’t be finding many shop owners doing cartwheels 😀

But more depressing in the same article is that consumer confidence is at the lowest rate since 2004 and that means that despite some things being rediculously low in price, people won’t commit to buy!

Gary: The debt clock does give information on debt in relation to GDP which as you are no doubt aware, is the barometer that measures the financial health of a country. If you hover your mouse over countries it reveals the debt, population, debt per person and debt as a percentage of GDP (It would have been useful to see reserves of gold, silver etc).

Whereas in business accounting you would have to balance debt to assets it doesn’t quite work the same for assessing a countries wealth. For instance there is a projected fall in the price of properties forecast but with wages being frozen, utility bills and food rising and the banks not lending, there will be few people taking advantage, certainly not the average man…. But the rich will get richer as sure as eggs are eggs!

When assessing what something is worth: It is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

[TF_Gary]

Isn’t it about time the victimised, tabloid-bashed, hard-working bankers got some sympathy?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/8895091/Thousands-more-City-banking-jobs-could-go.html

200,000 jobs lost. Not public sector “either we pay for their worthless jobs or we pay for their benefits” roles. Real, high tax yielding, society benefiting jobs. Gone.

Come on chaps, get your violins out…

[TF_JohnH]

Firstly as Jones would say “dont panic”. The public sector has to be shrunk but it will take time. The debt has to be brought under contol which ever political party is in charge, international money markets will dictate that, when you owe money to anyone you are not in a strong position to call out the odds.
The wealth creative elements in our economy will once more provide the fruits for politicians to waste but it will take time.
Meantime it is not helpfull everyone going on strike and denying the problem, private pensions were sorted years ago by companies god only know why its taken so long for the public sector to follow suit. How can any such strikes comand public sympathy??? Many hard working low paid private sector workers are contributing more to public sector pensions through taxation than they are their own. They will also enjoy a terrible pension compared to public sector workers, pound for pound on contributions, yet the public sector still demand more for less. I think we can all see where that leads.
The unions will huff and puff, the governement will make a few concessions and agreement will be reached, meantime MPs will still retain golden pensions courtesy of us all, shame on them.

[TF_caster robParticipant]

“rob why do you assume public servants are all pin striped pen
pushers earning lots of wonga?? 95% earn basic wages , do very important jobs in the community , and cannot be removed without the very needy in our society suffering.”

I didn’t.

I thought they were beardy, sandal-wearing, lentil scoffers.

Irrespective of their appearance and diet we have more of them than we need and can aford.

And what are these important jobs and where’s that community thing?

[TF_caster robParticipant]

The Irish are showing the way in how to recover from the effects of an artificial domestic property bubble:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15781111

23500 public sector employees, along with their 40 day holiday entitlements, that the rest of the populace won’t miss.

We could do with some of that.

[TF_IAN.]

Richard Branson buying northern rock for £750 million cost us tax payers £4 billion !.
I wonder how many bombs that would buy?

[TF_Dodge]

Yepp,

Cameron , Clegg , Osbourne & co are making Gordy look like a knight in shining armour !

[TF_JohnC]

And just think if Labour knew what they were doing we wouldn’t be in this mess……………..

[TF_caster robParticipant]

Yepp,

Gordy had the midas touch alright:

[TF_Dodge]

Is that Baroness Warsi on the right ? 😮 😮

[TF_caster robParticipant]

No, it’s Dianne Abbot, back from jogging.

[TF_Dodge]

caster rob …….. that is the first time you have ever made me laugh ! well done !

ps Are you sure it isnt Boris after his audition for TOWIE ? :p

[TF_caster robParticipant]

Not very well up on TOWIE I’m afraid, only seen stuff in the paper.

Gaddafi does have that “look” about him though.

[TF_herbie]

northern rock = 450 to 650 million loss of taxpayers money. who,s next for a windfall from the tories/libs?? Lloyds or bank of jocks. both with share value,s that are billions below what we paid for them and both still making a loss , much like British Leyland did lol.
now let me say i am not down in the dumps about this . i have a private pension that is 4 times better than my public pension. both had 20 years service . the difference is my private pension ( avon rubber ltd) was invested whereas my public pension contributions went into the nations coffers and were squandered on unlawful wars and the E/U. had previous governments invested my money then all this pension ( we cannot afford it tripe) wouldn’t be with us. however if you think the people affected should pay more for longer to receive less then i hope beyond hope that the very same happens to you later in your life. i will be above laughing. 😀

[TF_herbie]

THE PLOT THICKENS.
today our glorious leader of a once proud and independent nation is summoned like a naughty boy to Berlin to be told what our real leaders aka Germany want us to do. after being spanked by the French for daring to speak its now detention for Cameron in Berlin. he WILL be ordered to support Germany,s , sorry Europe,s transaction tax which could lead to all our bankers going to china. Mmmmmmm tempting. 😀 he will also be told that treaty,s WILL have to be altered or tweeked if you use Cameron speak .NOW. wasn’t it Cameron who in front of the whole nation told us that any further changes to ANY treaty would first be put to the people for approval. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm tricky one that David. but then again wasn’t it Cameron who also promised a referendum before the election , bit like Blair did..so i suppose that’s an easy one to wriggle out of. let me see Mmmmmmm how does David take the nations eye of his dilemma????????????? I KNOW lets invade Iran with our buddy America that will push the German takeover of the U/K onto the back pages. :p simples

so all hail our glorious leader
HEIL ANGELA

[TF_JohnH]

Sorry Herbie, pay more and recieve more. Less per month I agree but on average in future people will be drawing on their pensions 10 years longer than their parents ever did. Thats the problem.
I run my own company and wonder if anyone can guess how much its going to cost me to buy an anuity to cover an ex employee who is due a pension of 22kpa when he retires next year? The scheme was frozen in 1998, having been started in 1975. He left in 1998 but obviously has his pension protected.
Dont guess under 600k, can I also tell you his total personal contributions into the scheme were less than 6k.
I recon most average public sector workers will be in that ball park at least, its bloody scary!!

[TF_Gary]

Also, herbie, the whole point around defined benefit pensions that you have clearly missed is that your pension is determined independently of the investment gains made (hence DEFINED benefit). Amazing as well that in spite of you saluting Avon Rubber’s wonderful management of your pension fund, they still had a pencion deficit of £6.3m at last count (check the Annual Report if you don’t believe me: http://www.avon-rubber.com/Downloads/ARA2010_PDFs/AVON_ARA_2010.pdf). Who do you think pays for that?

Two other points you have made that are factually wrong:
1) Cameron actually said that any further transfer of power to Brussels would go to a referendum, not any treaty change

2) Northern Rock “good bank” actually sold for £750m plus Virgin is taking on £150m of debt, so the real consideration is c.£900m (with a potential for a further £130m in deferred consideration if the business is successful). We (taxpayers) injected £1.4bn, so that leaves us some way to recouping our investment. The real test is the “bad bank” which still has £50bn of mortgages in run off. So far, “bad bank” has generated a c.£600m profit (based on fair value accounting), so currently the taxpayer has made a £100m profit from its Northern Rock investment. The only real question is how much of the £50bn of outstanding mortgages will ever be repaid…

[TF_One Out of the Frame]

I got into trade unionism shortly after joining the Health Service and it was mainly due to an overwhelming desire to promote ‘fairness’ and it is still a trait that I have today.

We are facing tough times but should public sector employees bare the brunt for the excesses of others? Is it fair, for instance, that my Wife (who is a RMN) after twenty five years nursing with an option to retire on a full pension in twelve years time is informed that she has to work another ten years on top of that and receive the same pension?

There are a lot of people who have had wage freezes (my Wife being one of those) and it does affect the family budget and what we can do: I would love to fish Nigels Christmas match at Barston this weekend but cannot justify spending £300 on replacing keepnets and luggage destroyed by mice in the run up to Christmas!

Shouldn’t OUR Government be making similar budgetary decisions? ‘I’d love to wage war on the Lybian’s/Afghani/Iraqi/Iranian’s (delete as necessary) but we cannot afford to!’

I’ve no idea what the rational is behind flogging Northern Rock for £747m either, when we, the tax payer, paid £1.4 BILLION into it three years ago (not to mention the £21bn that they still owe) but someone is making money at it and at least you cannot say that it was to keep 2,500 in employment as 3,000 lost their jobs when the bail out happened!

Personally I think that we should own the banks.

Government implementation of fuel duty alone has wiped £1.5bn out of the revenue coffers as people use their cars less and there is a knock on effect as the garages service less, less consumables are required so less people are required to move them or manufacture etc.

I think that the ordinary people have been squeezed enough and that there will be a tipping point shortly when we go from tutting loudly over the morning paper to actually demonstrating to the Government that they must start acting for the people rather than the elite minority.

[TF_Gary]

Mark, I want to take you up on: “We are facing tough times but should public sector employees bare the brunt for the excesses of others?”

The point you are missing is that public sector employees are a HUGE PART OF THE EXCESS. When public spending increased massively under Labour, the beneficiaries were public sector workers through higher wages, bonuses and staff numbers. Two of the major sources of funding for this public spending boom were:
1) borrowing (ie, placing a greater future burden on taxpayers); and
2) tax revenue related to or directly from the financial services industry.

Another thing to remember is that public sector employment and wages were still increasing in 2008-10, against a backdrop of huge job losses and wage freezes in the private sector. What we will see over the next couple of years is a necessary correction for Labour’s largesse, as public sector wages come back into balance with the private sector. You cannot focus on such a narrow time horizon or you risk drawing entirely the wrong conclusions.

[TF_moto46]

I dont mean to be so gloomy but if you want a high level overview of what will happen to civilisation as we know it here goes:

The next world war will be over oil may not be immediately obvious but the oil wars started with the gulf war. The west against china and russia combined will be the start of the end.

Europe is finished cant keep trying these temporary fixes none will work the euro has died

A regional to global epidemic is over due and will hit

Risk from meteors, natural disasters (tsnunami, flodding etc)

This tells me we should enjoy our fishing/families and life because the future is damned

[TF_herbie]

Also, herbie, the whole point around defined benefit pensions that you have clearly missed is that your pension is determined independently of the investment gains made (hence DEFINED benefit). Amazing as well that in spite of you saluting Avon Rubber’s wonderful management of your pension fund, they still had a pencion deficit of £6.3m at last count (check the Annual Report if you don’t believe me: http://www.avon-rubber.com/Downloads/AR … A_2010.pdf). Who do you think pays for

ah Gary my friend. Avon rubber also included Avon tyres who i worked for. they were sold to cooper tyres USA. my union boss MR TERRY FELL T&GWU. insisted the pension fund be transferred to private hands. this was done before the sale of Avon tyres (now cooper Avon). this fund is quite healthy because not many rubber workers live long lives due to the chemicals used pre 1990. sad but true. the reason for the 6.3 deficit is the unions protected people like myself .leaving the management of Avon rubber , who by the way had sold all the family silver ( Avon lippit hobbs) long ago to start all over again pension wise. wonder who will protect future generations????.
secondly Gary all the workers i know that are public servants don’t and never have earned more than 22,000pa. the way you go on about them makes me laugh. high public sector earners. number less than 5% including head teachers. basic salary for a teacher is around 27,000 rising to 31,000 over 10 years. now in the private sector i earned 22,000 in 1992.

[TF_caster robParticipant]

herbie, I’m very pleased that your pensions done OK. I stopped contributing to mine in 1999 when I saw what Brown was doing to private pension funds and I’ve tried to be sensible and save money and been debt-free since then, though I’ll probably work till I die anyway, presuming I keep my job.

As for not knowing any public servants earning more than £22000 may I introduce you to this crowd?

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2011/11/18/jobs-fears-for-middle-managers-at-wolverhampton-council/

One hundred and twenty eight middle managers on over 50k!

Whilst I agree that a basic level of essential sevices are necessary and have to be provided by local government I honestly don’t believe this level of staffing is necessary. It’s a result of “jobs for the boys” and empire building, because local councils are rife with it. Do you think the taxpayers of Wolverhampton will miss them when they go?

I wonder how many of them have “diversity” “Climate-change” or “street something” in their job titles?

Bin emptying, grass-cutting and street-sweeping operations don’t need middle-managers, never have.

[TF_proper tidal boy]

caster rob i aagree with you for once grass sweeps and leaves can be carried out by pensioners now in there spare time so you can wallow in luxury and profit my A /// : :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[TF_herbie]

couldn’t agree more rob, far too many managers now. unfortunately they wont be the ones losing there jobs. councils always start at the bottom . always have. its called reduced funding so say my school received less money for the cleaning budget , so less cleaners. same number of managers though. that’s how they keep there jobs —- divide and conquer , on paper they still have the same number of schools to look after just with less staff. simples cuts done and dusted. the manager in charge of the managers now has his reduced budget balanced. the government however now have a cleaner who paid taxes and earned 200pw now on benefits of 300pw net loss to the government =£350pw. how is that saving money?????? 😡 why i hear people asking is she getting more benefits than wages ?? well before she had her pride and a job so she managed. now =no job so entitled to 100% housing benefit. 100% council tax plus family living allowance on top of job seekers. CRAZY ECONOMICS from people who are supposed to be intelligent. lol

[TF_Gary]

herbie, I agree with your last post. Two conclusions:

1) If benefits pays more than work, benefits should be cut, as should tax on low wage employees (happily this is the Coalition government’s policy)

2) There is massive slack in the civil service, but the cuts are not directed appropriately because of the incentive structures that are in place. Is the answer to privatise more of this so that incentives are defined by the profit motive and not middle managers building fiefdoms?

[TF_herbie]

Gary the only way to cut benefits would be for the government to own the rented accommodation these benefits are wasted on in the first place, also it has always been a mystery to me how everything except the civil service was privatised.?????

[TF_Dodge]

@herbie wrote:

Gary the only way to cut benefits would be for the government to own the rented accommodation these benefits are wasted on in the first place, also it has always been a mystery to me how everything except the civil service was privatised.?????

Here you go herbs …… brilliant piece in tonights Manchester Evening News by David Ottewell its political correspondent , sort of sums up everything in a nutshell ! enjoy mate 😉 😎

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/comment/blogs/s/1465740_david-ottewell-cold-winter-for-cameron-as-economic-tide-fails-to-turn

[TF_herbie]

good read dodger some worrying truths there mate. i personally do not think he,s up to it to be honest. there are too many who are above the comfort line dictating his policies whilst the working man on the shop floor loses everything. that cannot last too long, there,s only so much crap a man will take whilst his family suffers. we have a strike on the 30th somehow i don’t think it will be our last . vive the revolution. 😀

[TF_MICK THE BOOKIE]

One thing to say on this subject……….As a out of work old aged pensioner who is down on his luck and cant even afford to go fishing…….”Giz a job”. 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 .MASSIVE LOL.

HAVE A NICE DAY NOW. :p :p :p :p :p

[TF_Gary]

Dodge, the only thing that the MEN piece lacks is solutions. Lots of factual narrative, but narrative won’t help us out of this mess…

[TF_baitchefParticipant]

Who gives a sh*t?
If people have got themselves into financial trouble, then tuff they shouldn’t be so greedy.
All of a sudden everybody was a property developer bullsh*t etc etc etc with houses valued at over 4 times thier proper worth!!
My wife has a client who is 20, she currently has 14 credit cards maxed out and probably has no intention of every paying the money back.
She used to work in the city back in the 90’s where the dick head traders would think nothing of leaving £200.00 tips of other peoples money just for a bottle of pink bubbly and a round of butties. Madness!!

On a different note, what I want to know is when is something going to be done about the scroungers and tax dodgers that bleed the country dry. You only have to go down your local high street on a weekday to see all the pikey mothers with twenty kids and their work shy pot head boyfriends/husbands.
And don’t even get me started on the selfish obese who put a huge strain on the nhs/local services!!

[TF_Dodge]

@Gary wrote:

Dodge, the only thing that the MEN piece lacks is solutions. Lots of factual narrative, but narrative won’t help us out of this mess…

Cameron & Co get paid very handsomely to find solutions not the MEN Gary , he and his cronies are failing the majority ……… his policies , his mess !

[TF_herbie]

On a different note, what I want to know is when is something going to be done about the scroungers and tax dodgers that bleed the country dry. You only have to go down your local high street on a weekday to see all the pikey mothers with twenty kids and their work shy pot head boyfriends/husbands.

IN DEVON 😮 😮 😮 😮 god forbid 😀

[TF_caster robParticipant]

“Cameron & Co get paid very handsomely to find solutions not the MEN Gary , he and his cronies are failing the majority ……… his policies , his mess !”

Maybe the coalition government should stop paying the interest on Labour’s debt?

[TF_lloydy1970]

Its all Cameron’s fault and everything that ain’t is Thatchers fault, none of its got anything to do with the 17 years of labour

[TF_billy the squidParticipant]

On a COMPLETELY different note!, cant the government invent a new F1 that you can actually hold onto when unhooking??

[TF_herbie]

sorry billy but a government F1 would be of no use because it would weigh 3lb when caught and 5% less when weighed subject to market fluctuations. 😀 also they would through government contract,s cost £3,000.00 each with a further £500 consultants fee to be paid before the fish are moved. on top of that one environment fishery expert would have to accompany each fish and stay on site for 3 months to check on its welfare. also the government would insist on the fishery having a new and updated commuter system costing 3 billion and linked to other fishery,s for monitoring purposes.when all that is in place.
an enjoyment tax would have to be introduced to pay for the new quango AKA the F1 fisheries agency. the minister in charge must know fcuk all about fish as a matter of course. this in turn would mean a EURO F1 department in order for the Germans to tell us what we are doing wrong and also tender for the supply contract. so you see it may not be cost effective for H/M government to do as you wish. the may though set it all up and sell it to branson for a quid. 😀 😀 😀

[TF_IAN.]

Of course thats all the last governments fault!!!!! 😉

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